Dana Bell
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Posts posted by Dana Bell
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I was regretting my lack of time to dig out the notes and write this up - now I see that I did something on the Wildcat colors five years ago! I've got to get my memory checked (if only I can remember to).
One note on the side-view drawings - remember (there's that word again) that the original production F4F cowls were two-piece installations, with top and bottom halves.
Cheers,
Dana
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Hi Geoff,
As a rule of thumb, most early- and mid-1930s US Navy aircraft were painted with aluminized enamel on fabric surfaces and Light Gray enamel on metal surfaces. (The aluminized enamel didn't stick to the metal primer, so Light Gray was substituted.) With fabric-covered wings, the F9C would have used aluminum enamel on the wings, as confrimed by B&W photos and color pix of restored aircraft.
Later, primers changed, aluminized lacquers and dopes were introduced, and subsequent aircraft switched to all aluminized finishes.
Cheers,
Dana
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I remember a kit from the very lat '50s that included detailed engines and cockpits (at least for the era) and partially retracting landing gear, all with a pedistal mount and cable-attached joy stick. I made a pre-teenager's mess of the thing, and wish I had one today. There was also a box-scale Revell.
Cheers,
Dana
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I have enough trouble with folks using a site like this, but I wish we wouldn't tell folks about it. This site has no respect for copyright, and offers free access to books that are still in print. As one of the authors featured, I've no respect for sites that think a scanner is a great substitute for research and writing...
Cheers,
Dana
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Hi TRF,
The Light Gray/Blue Gray scheme was a quick, untested response to the Navy's need for a darker, overwater scheme. When BuAer responded to the Fleet's request for a darker upper surface color, Washington sent a simple chip of a color that had been tested for a camouflage to hide aircraft from shipboard gunners. The Fleet said "fine" and the rest was history.
The color was far too light, and within weeks of the Pearl Harbor attack the Fleet was demanding a darker choice - this resulted in a color callled Dark Blue, a relative of carrier Deck Blue paint.
At the same time the folks at North Island were working on a graded scheme of black, grays, and white. Although a blue version was less stable, the admirals wanted their airplanes to be blue, and the 4-color scheme was approved in late 1942.
The ASW schemes were tested extensively, though at a lower priority. They were designed to either hide from surface vessles, either cutting shadows in bright skies, or reducing glint in darker skies. Interestingly, neither scheme was approved for use if enemy aircraft were expected to be present.
Cheers,
Dana
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Hi Ivan,
I've wondered about the Israeli colors for over half a century, but no one seems to have a contemporary source. There are a number of modelers' solution that look really good, but no Israeli instruction, plan, or memo.
The closest I've found was in Sikorsky factory plans for export S-55s and S-58s -- they call out US ANA 616 Sand and the Dark Gray that later became 36118. (All my documents are boxed up due to a move, and I can't remember which gray was used underneath.) It seems that the Middle Eastern sum might have faded those paint to what we see in color photos, but I don't know for certain.
Cheers,
Dana
- Kagemusha, CRAZY IVAN5 and Oldbaldguy
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Hi All!
The photo came from Bunker Hill, listed as taken on 22 July 1943. The pilot was OK, with minor injuries.
Although the photo contrast makes the wings appear white below, the original shows the outer panels to be Intermediate Blue; the aircraft had been repainted in the 4-color graded camouflage at Norfolk.
As Crazy Ivan5 noted, the Corsairs were removed from carrier duty less than a month after this photo was taken - not because of safety concerns, but wholly to simplify fleet logistics. The Corsair was the superior aircraft, but there were already more operational Hellcat units available. Further advances in the Corsair led the F4U's return to carrier ops in late 1943.
The story about the Brits teaching us to circle for landing is so deeply intrenched that it may never go away. Movies from the 1930s, as well as early Corsair tests, show that the circling approach had been standard US Navy prectice for years. What the Brits did show us involved a revision to the landing signal officer's prectice: the USN LSOs had been dropping an arm to show that a wing was too low, signally to describe an approach problem. The Brits taught us to show the solution - if a wing was too low, the LSO would raise the paddle (or flag) on that side to direct the pilot to raise the wing.
Cheers,
Dana
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Hi Thierry,
The TBDs were deivered with aluminized enamel in the wheel wells. There was little need to repaint them tinted zinc chromate, though anything is possible. The underwater photos suggest that the aircraft may have repainted the wells Light Gray with the introduction of camouflage.
Cheers,
Dana
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I'm not sure if Squadron has a copublishing or distribution agreement in the UK. In the old days we could rely on Lionel Leventhal and Arms and Armour Press - those were truly great days with one of the best publishers!
Dana
(You might defray postage by buying multiple copies with friends and sharing postage.)
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Hi Rod,
Not a problem. There can be endless discussions about color names and applications, and the new book updates that.
However, what really matters is how does the paint applied to a model appear, and your choice looks really good. If I can ever make the time to build a TBD, I'll be very happy if mt cockpit looks as good as yours!
Cheers,
Dana
- Rod Bettencourt, Uncarina, Iain and 1 other
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Although the Fleet reported that they had painted the cockpits Bronze Green, they had actually used black-tinted zinc chromate - AKA Green zinc chromate. Had they added aluminum the color would have been callled Yellow Green. Had they used a bit less black the color might have matched Interior Green.
In fact, the last four production aircraft from the original order and all fifteen aircraft on the second order left the factory with aluminized zinc chromate (no black pigment) - a bright pastel green. The canopy frames on those aircraft were Bronze Green inside and out,
Cheers,
Dana
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37 minutes ago, mywifehatesmodels said:
Thanks for the heads up, Dana!
I'm assuming this is an improved version (or entirely new) of the old "In Action" title for the TBD. I have the old one. I'm curious of what may have been corrected or added in the newest addition (generally speaking, of course). The TBD-1 is definitely on my list of things to build and this new edition would certainly be on my list for references to obtain, in preparation for that.
Thanks again!
John
Hi John,
Glad you took the time to ask - this is an entirely new book, based on three of us spending three weeks researching at the National Archives on Pennsylvania Avenue. We found revisions to every previous book, particularly regarding:
- Development
- Engine installation
- Fixed armament
- That "kidney-shaped" lump on the right side of the forward fuselage
- Canopy design
- Hydraulics
- Armor
- Formation lights
- Assistant pilot's flexible machine gun
- Norden bomb sight installation
- Gunner's installation
- Radio revisions
- Both approach light configurations
- Mark XLII bomb racks
- Wing folds
- Floatation gear
- Main gear strut revisions
- Production deliveries
- Paint schemes
- Squadron histories
- Wartime record
Additionally, the photos have been copied at very high resolution, and they're printed large, generally one to a page - you can see all the details.
My rule is that I won't waste my time writing a book that copies what is already written, so that you won't waste your money buying a book that offers nothing new. My hope is that purchasers will find each book interesting to read and helpful for any modeling projects.
(However, I can't promise that anyone's wife will like it...)
Cheers,
Dana
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Before going too far on the Trumpeter TBD, everyone might benefit from some of the things we discovered while writing Squadron's TBD Devastator In Action. The large book (176 pages) hit the shelves on Monday and is now also available on eBay at https://www.ebay.com/itm/386475906223 - I hope you all enjoy!
Cheers,
Dana
- Dennis7423, Jim Mason, coogrfan and 1 other
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Hi Chuck,
I'm glad the books arrived safely - they were a bunch off fun to write.
I'll see what I can dig up on those wheel wells for you. 'Till then...
Cheers,
Dana
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Hi George,
Found my source - the first photo in Ray Wagner's 1966 Aircraft in Profile explains that the aircraft in the film was a "...late C or D model as indicated by the exhaust stacks" painted in Doolittle's markings for display at the USAF Museum.
While the E&M appears to be correct, it was designed for field use and often not applicable for factory production (which was covered by specifications rather than technical manuals). Both documents changed with time, and both were often ignored (with or without Wright Field approval) at the factories. North American's California facility was specifically excused from most interior priming/painting orders.
I mispoke earlier when noting the use of Bronze Green in the bombardier's compartment - as you noted, it was originally Yellow Green, later replaced by an unidentified green zinc chromate formula, then by Interior Green in 1943.
Here's my older explanation of Yellow Green and its evolution: http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/showandtell1yellowgreendb_1.htm
Cheers,
Dana
- Pete Roberts, MikeMaben and D Bellis
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Hi George,
I'm afraid I don't recall the source of my information - this is something I read back in the 1960s. The main visible difference between Doolittle's aircraft and the immitation is the exhaust type. I'll check my shelves to see if I can find the old refs.
Cheers,
Dana
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Hi George,
Sorry I've needed so long to get back to you - it's been a very busy time of life!
First, here are some notes on Yellow Green from a few years ago. From what I can tell, they're still accurate.
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/showandtell1yellowgreendb_1.htm
But more importantly, this isn't something you run into on Doolittle's B-25s. All the B-25Bs were built in California, and because the Douglas plant there had paint shop problems they were built without paint or primer inside the after fuselage or bomb bay. (There's a small possibility that the bomb bay was Neutral Gray, but I don't have access to photos that would indicate that either way.) The cockpit and bombardier's compartment were Bronze Green inside. The Kansas City facility had a better paint shop, and photos from there show extensive use of primers.
I know this goes against the tech orders, but tech orders are little more than an indication of the service's desires. Specifications are slightly better, but the contract and correspondence files are what really guided (without controlling) the manufacturing process. There are plenty of notes from air force factory reps wondering if anyone gave "company A" permission to use an odd color combination, with Wright Field a "whatever, it's OK) response.
Good luck with the model - I look forward to seeing your progress!
Dana
(BTW - the aircraft exempted from from using visible interior primers were the California-built AT-6, P-51, and B-25 and the Seattle-built B-17.)
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The AAF had many open-air bomb dumps. The bombs were painted with IR sensitive Dark Olive Drab paint to help hide the dumps from enemy reconnaissance cameras. (Somewhere around here I've got a document discussing the problem...)
Cheers,
Dana
- Oldbaldguy, easixpedro, Isar 30/07 and 3 others
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F4U-1D Cowl Interior Color?
in Aviation Discussion & Research
Posted
Hi Juggernut,
My factory drawing for 4-tone F4Us called out both Light Gray and Intermediate Blue as the two choices for cowling interiors - Vought was trying to use up extra paint stocks as cowl finish coats. Right now I can't get to my overall Glossy Sea Blue scheme drawings, but I suspect the colors were the same.
Cheers,
Dana