chuck540z3 Posted December 7, 2020 Author Share Posted December 7, 2020 No real problem on the scratching front guys. My little experiment above was the bare minimum of creating a scuffed metallic finish, so I will do so more aggressively on the dorsal areas and much less so down the sides. One thing that real metallic finishes (like foil) have that paint like Alclad usually don't have, is the swirled and slightly scratched finish. I hope to replicate this without the pain of foil. There are some fantastic models out there using foil and I totally respect how they look from about a foot away, which is fantastic. Close up at about 2"? Not so much in my experience, especially with the subtle rivet detail I plan to use that has been beaten to death in this thread already. Sorry about that, totally my fault. No more from me until I have at least accomplished something constructive with this kit! The DACO book has me changing many things on the fuselage already, and few of them are rivet related. Cheers, Chuck AlbertD, KiwiZac, allthumbs and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 (edited) ...from the Wings of Pegasus website. This ultra-talented modeler achieves a "scratched" aluminum affect by dry brushing Mr. Color Chrome Silver over the finish coat of paint as explained in this article. Rich Edited December 8, 2020 by allthumbs Rockie Yarwood, chuck540z3, F`s are my favs and 14 others 16 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F`s are my favs Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 I'd say go for both ways - a mix of coarse(r) sandpaper under the Alclad and drybrushing above it. It could be the same after all, but, it's an extra layer of flavor. The goal is to keep the final pattern of the scratches as uneven as possible. While for the riverts - the resin ones seem just fine and yet, a mix with the goold old riveter here and there might look even better. For this plane, ''different is better''. chuck540z3 and scvrobeson 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyrosjzmichos Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Excellent choice of project and looking forward to more updates! chuck540z3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marine104 Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 (edited) Hi Chuck, just a great project! I agree, the replication of the scratches on a NMF goes a big way to really give the model a realistic finish, the pristine Alclad finish always misses a bit imho. I wanted to show you some pictures of a model I did last year where I experimented replicating the same things so you could weigh it up if it helps in anyway, just food for thought! It is a very small 1/72 Mirage IIIS, built really as a precursor to a 1/32 Mirage conversion using the Italeri kit I'll do someday. I wanted to trial some techniques before committing in the big scale. 1/72 has it's own problems with scale representation, my logic was, if it works in 1/72 it should easily work in 1/32. Of note on the real Mirage, the fuselage and vertical fin were really the only highly polished areas where the scratching were mostly evident, the wings were mainly matt and quite dull where the scratches were less obvious, so the technique was mostly concentrated on the hi-shine areas. I used Alclad Polished and Airframe aluminium as the base layer for the highly reflective areas, protected with Aqua gloss. Then I used Humbrol polished aluminium metalcote to dry brush a metallic grain onto the paint, doing this created the contrast in finish between the scratches and polished metal. If you click the flickr links you can get much higher res to see up close (and all the flaws!), The wings also received some blotchy type dry brushing to further break up the finish, it is subtle in the picture above. The finished model, The 'scratches' are more evident in natural light and can become more subdued in other lighting as below. Was working in 1/72 though so everything had to be very subtle anyways for scale effect. In 1/32 I'd probably go some more with the contrast. There are more pictures and WIP photos on my Flickr page if you want more pics, I don't want to hog/derail your thread more than I already have! I find the high-shine Alclad works mainly with the differing reflection of the underlying gloss (assuming black primer), but also the different tone of the dry brushed Humbrol helped break up and emphasise the scratches in places. The contrast between the hi-shine untouched Alclad and the less reflective Humbrol did give a real nice representation of the scratches in the flesh. It does not have however the 3D nature of the real marks. I did try scrathing up the primer in some experiments but concluded it was too obvious and difficult in this small scale, 1/32 on the other hand it may be just perfect. IIRC I also tried scratching up the primer, then putting a gloss clear over this (micro meshed/polished) and then the Alclad which give a more subtle but noticeable scratch effect. Whilst I'm going on I might as well mention a few other things I found worked/didn't work if it is interesting. For the clear layer I tried various things but Alclad Aqua gloss was the only one which really didn't attack the Hi-shine Alclad, things like Tamiya X-22 thinned with levelling thinner give an excellent crystal clear smooth gloss, but I found the hotter thinners just slightly attacks the delicate Hi-shine Alclads enough to notice and take the edge of the finish. Aqua gloss is a royal PITA to spray though to really get a flawless finish, if you can brush it, it gives way better results, brushing a 1/32 model though would be risky business. I might try polishing up the Aqua gloss with Tamiya compound next time. Ideally you just don't want a clear coat but unless you use enamel primers for the Hi-shine Alclads, they just come off in my experience as they don't truly bite/combine into anything but a gloss enamel. Love your works Chuck, probably the most interesting Aircraft WIP threads out there on the net! If there are too many pictures here that you don't want distracting your thread please tell me and I'll remove, I just want to show the results properly of my experiments with the dry brushing for discussion purposes. Cheers, David edit..A few things I forgot to mention. I used Humbrol Polished Aluminium metalcote, an older tin as I'm not sure the modern stuff is so good anymore. I tried using Mr Color metalllics but found they dried too quick on the brush and also damaged the Alclad finish on tests. Water based metallics like the new Vallejo versions may be the best bet but could also dry too quick on the brush, I didn't have any to try at the time. The enamel gave enough time to dry brush properly and didn't damage the finish, it did take however maybe a week to go 'off' fully before you could handle the model properly. Replicating the scratches in this scale was difficult for sure, in 1/32 however with the larger canvas and scale factor working for you I think you could get much better results. Edited December 7, 2020 by Marine104 KiwiZac, airea, Rockie Yarwood and 13 others 15 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighter Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 I'd be very careful with "real" scratches - it may look like bad surface preparation. I'd vote for the drybrush option. I additiona, I don't think there are any deep scratches on the real a/c - it's more like little scuffs or the surface being "polished" irregularly by mechanics moving on the aircraft and working on panels in my opinion. chuck540z3 and AlbertD 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck540z3 Posted December 8, 2020 Author Share Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) December 8/20 Thank you everyone for the finishing and rivet tips. I'm pretty sure I have figured out how I am going to do this, but that's still a long way down the road. Going through the fuselage parts when compared to the DACO book, there are a number of issues. No surprise there, so I’ve started to fix them fairly methodically, starting on the front port side. Here is the game plan: - Fix obvious errors, but don’t go crazy on stuff that few will notice as errors without a reference photo in front of them - Major fastener detail will be enhanced or created, while rivet detail will be either HGW raised rivets or conventional depressions (TBD) - About half of the major rivet detail will be created. There is just too many to get them all. - Try to document Before/After changes, but not all of them. Again, too darn many to worry about So, here’s a few of the issues that I have found on this front quadrant so far. What I initially thought was circular detail on the bottom, turns out to be dreaded pin marks. The navigation light, on the starboard side this time, is way off center. The main fuel cap is oval instead of circular and a bit of a mess. The recess for the AOA vane shouldn’t have all those fasteners around it. Same for the circular panel above it. So let’s start fixing a few things. Since most CF-104’s in the late 60’s/early 70’s didn’t have a gun, I covered the opening with a shroud that is Part 4A, but not mentioned in the instructions. It is recessed a bit too much compared to the real deal and was hard to fit without lots of trimming, but I’m calling it “good enough”. The gun doors, however, don’t really fit at all if you want them to be strong against the fuselage. To fix this, I applied thin strips of Styrene to the interior of the gun compartment: 0.5mm along the top and 0.25mm along the sides. The doors still had a few gaps around them, so I oozed in Tamiya Extra thin cement around them to help glue to the fuselage and close the gaps at the same time. I will re-scribe new panel lines once the glue has had a few days to dry and harden. The AOA recess was cleaned up and an external ring was scribed, while the circular panel above it (pic is upside down) had all the rivets around it removed and 4 fasteners applied within. The AOA vane is only dry fitted and a hole was also drilled below the canopy release handle on the right. On the left, I added a little rectangular panel I noticed was present on the real deal. The fuel cap was removed and a brass replacement from my stash was inserted into a recess I made to make it flush (hard to do cleanly!). Seemingly random fastener detail was then added according to references. One of the fuel pump doors on the bottom has fastener detail around the door, when it should be within the door. Since the door was a bit too small already, I filled it and created a new door around the fasteners instead. Still some cleanup to do around the edges.... And even though it’s on the other side that I haven’t got to yet and was driving me crazy!, I filled in the navigation light surround and scribed a new one that is more centered. To create some of this and future detail, here’s what I use to help me. Over the years I have picked up Hasegawa “Try Tools” and Lion Roar templates, but I have no idea where you can buy them today. And my Go-To tools of rivet rulers, needle in a pin vice and a variety of scribers. The black ones in the middle are Trumpeter, with both an older duller version and a new and sharper version, hence the masking tape to identify which is which. And for the big fasteners, my handy beading tool which is called a "Mega Tool" that I bought from UMM. These circular heads are super hard and will not scratch or dent under normal use. There, I actually did some real modeling in this thread! I will probably spend the next week or two getting the other parts of the fuselage halves cleaned up, then I’ll attack the installation of the Black Box resin cockpit. As mentioned earlier, I am determined to fit this sucker in! Cheers, Chuck Edited December 8, 2020 by chuck540z3 Landrotten Highlander, F`s are my favs, daveculp and 22 others 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepard Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 hi mate... always a pleasure to see your inspiring work... thanks for sharing it. cheers shep chuck540z3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Good start Chuck, some walkaround pics of a painted CF-104 are here that show some good details: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235012227-lockheed-canadair-cf-104-starfighter/ Jari Michael931080, chuck540z3 and Rockie Yarwood 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck540z3 Posted December 8, 2020 Author Share Posted December 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Finn said: Good start Chuck, some walkaround pics of a painted CF-104 are here that show some good details: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235012227-lockheed-canadair-cf-104-starfighter/ Jari Thanks Jari. The cockpit photos are especially helpful! Cheers, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel111 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Loving your work already... and boy does that kit look rough! Marcel chuck540z3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck540z3 Posted December 8, 2020 Author Share Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Marcel111 said: Loving your work already... and boy does that kit look rough! Marcel Thanks Marcel. Yes, the kit is quite rough, but I knew that already before I started. I take comfort in the fact that there are some really nice builds of this kit out there, so it can turn out pretty good if I take my time. I'm shooting for a 75% corrected model. I'll never fix all of the inaccuracies, but if I can build a decent Trumpeter A-10C, I can build anything! Cheers, Chuck Edited December 8, 2020 by chuck540z3 Rockie Yarwood, Uncarina and Daniel460 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaninaustria Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 Awesome start mate! Really enjoy your builds! Your zipper is coming along nicely! Thanks for taking the time to share your techniques and talent with us - yet again! I learn a few things from each build! Cheers Alan chuck540z3 and Daniel460 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeA Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 Very tidy work on those corrections! Looking forward to how this one develops. Cheers chuck540z3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamme Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 Hello Chuck. I missed the start of your topic. Will follow your progress. I take a seat. Cheers, Jamme chuck540z3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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