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1/18 P51C Mustang "Lopes Hope the 3rd"

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I have to confess I was very disappointed when the Firefly was put on hold, and even more so when I found out the replacement project was just a Mustang (as a warbird fan I knew about Lope's Hope 3rd but the subject didn't seem "worthy" enough in my mind to follow the Spit). I've barely visited this thread, but tonight I've read through from the start and changed my tune. I'm totally on board for this! As others have said, it's hard to post replies to your updates because I feel I exhausted all my superlatives on Race 80's build! There's far too much posted for me to do individual reactions so I'll just say the throttle and radio bits you've recently posted are amazing little replicas that could totally be photos of parts Aircorps restored.

 

On 6/9/2018 at 11:34 AM, Anthony in NZ said:

Amazing work Peter, if ever you find yourself in New Zealand, I have some skin work on my 1:1 plane you can do.. :whistle:

Reading through this thread has made me want to get into mine, rather than head to the hobby room and get back into my kits! I have to see which powertools Dad has...up for a group build, Ant? :D

Edited by KiwiZac

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This all looks great fun, Peter.  I have to make up my mind about this.

 

WIP204_zpsdexnwiah.jpg

Love that fuel line layout.  It reminds me of the illustrations in the Mustang Parts Catalog.

 

Great show.

Sincerely,

Mark

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On 8/26/2018 at 2:03 AM, DonH said:

Fantastic work, I love it :wub:

 

Is it the light or does the decal on the throttle quadrant say "RIM" instead of "TRIM"?

 

On 8/26/2018 at 6:20 AM, LSP_Ray said:

Yes, should be RPM. P is distorted.

 

On 8/26/2018 at 6:20 AM, LSP_Ray said:

Yes, should be RPM. P is distorted.

 

See what you are doing to us Peter ? We are starting discussing the accuracy of the rendition of a stencil on a 1/18 throttle quadrant :rofl:

 

Hubert

Edited by Hubert Boillot
Corrected typos

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21 hours ago, JayW said:

Hi Peter - I just started following this subject.  Wow!  What an awesome project.   Now a few years back I did a 1/18 re-do of a 21st Century Toys P-51D "Miss Velma".  There are articles on it on LSP:

 

https://www.largescaleplanes.com/articles/article.php?aid=939

 

  Although a giant project it was not nearly what you have planned here, and not nearly as well detailed.  But, in so doing, I learned so very very much about the P-51, especially its drawing system.   Back then, I do not believe Aircorps Library was around like it is now, but I acquired CD's of the drawings in their entirety.  I will reread all this thread to see if you have unanswered questions that maybe I can help with.  Also, I highly recommend you sign up with the P-51 Special Interest Group (SIG).  It's free, and those folks might be the pre-imminent experts on all things P-51.  What a resource.  Just google P-51 SIG.  

 

As for tires/wheels - I did a heckuva lot of research on the sizing, as most model manufacturers and even the resin folks get it wrong.  That includes Tamiya BTW.  Here is what I used for the lathe-turned parts for Miss Velma:  Tire OD 27 inches (1.5 inches 1/18), Tire width 9.5 inches (.528 inch 1/18), wheel OD 15.0 inches (.833 inch 1/18), wheel width 9.75 inch (.54 inch 1/18).  The only dimension I am not dead sure of is wheel width, which is more likely 10.0 inches instead of 9.75 inches.  But at 1/18 the difference is merely 0.013 inch!  Here is thee thread if interested (you may remember):

 

 

One source was landing gear door drawing 106-33301 which shows marvelous cross sections of the tire and wheel and their clearances to the retracted door.  The drawing, just like all the others, can be scaled by using whatever dimensions that are called out on the drawing.  Although not official, it's a great way to size parts.  But that drawing is effective only for the D-model.  The equivalent B/C model drawing is 73-33301, which BTW is also effective on the original NA-73 prototype!  Just mind your dash numbers.  That drawing, like 106-33301, has excellent cross sections showing tire size (but not the wheel unfortunately).  

 

Sorry for boring you if this is not new info.  I'll be watching - great work so far.  And happy hunting.  BTW,  you are of course aware of the Next Higher Assembly blocks on engineering drawings?  They are next to the title block, and are tremendously useful for navigating the drawing tree.  That in addition to the parts catalog should get you everything you want, EXCEPT mods (T.O.'s) done in the field.  I came up against this several places on the P-51D.  For instance, the ETO P-51's didn't use the Detrola radio and its long wire antenna.  A plastic cover was devised for the hole in the canopy for the antenna wire.  That part could not be found in the NAA drawings, which all show the P-51 with that radio equipment.  I cannot remember how I came across its definition, but I think I got help from the SIG. 

 

One last thing - you no doubt have found the infinite variability in these aircraft.  The engineering departments were going non-stop during the war designing and releasing improvements.  The parts catalog can get you to the right parts for each block of aircraft as long as you know the serial number of the aircraft you mean to model.   So can the drawings if you pay attention to the effectivities.  Miss Velma was a P-51D-10NA  I seem to recall, and there were countless times where I had to research to make sure it got the right part.  Make sure you do that.

 

Hi Jay - thanks for stopping by - I have been following your 1/18 rebuilds attentively and they are in part behind the inspiration to 'go big' :)

 

Thanks very much for all the info and guidance - finding my way around the drawing library and all the vagaries of parts / model numbers and variability has been (and will be) a pretty daunting subject in itself. Aircorps actually posted a helpful 'how to read drawings' video which helped greatly in finding the parts up or down from the drawing you are in (so you can go from a bracket, to the bulkhead it sits on, to the structure the bulkhead is part of..) but even so unless it is labelled, finding the right one in most cases has come from friends on the forums - just like the U/C drawing you mention - likely I would not have found that one for this variant!

 

many thanks for your note on the wheels too - they seem to be a dark art, but now my Rhino 3D trial has run out, I won't be revisiting them for a while until I am ready to get all the 3D work completed - thankfully I am enjoying building too much to go back to the PC just yet :)

 

 

18 hours ago, DonH said:

Fantastic work, I love it :wub:

 

Is it the light or does the decal on the throttle quadrant say "RIM" instead of "TRIM"?

 

 

I had to check that Don as I thought I ballsed the artwork up, but as others have said it does say 'RPM' though the P has not fully come out - it's fair enough given that lettering is about 0.3mm tall!

 

9 hours ago, dodgem37 said:

This all looks great fun, Peter.  I have to make up my mind about this.

 

WIP204_zpsdexnwiah.jpg

Love that fuel line layout.  It reminds me of the illustrations in the Mustang Parts Catalog.

 

Great show.

Sincerely,

Mark

 

 

ahhh thanks Mark - nice to have it recognised - took quite a while drawing that from scratch, but it is one of those details that is worth it:)

 

so, two posts in two days - it does feel like things are getting back to normal :)

 

I mentioned the 'A' frame behind the seat - this is the key structural part from which the rest of the cockpit will orient - thankfully with that superb CAD work posted, I had help in understanding how it goes together..

 

..this is it from the front..

 

WIP232_zpskzln1spl.jpg

 

..and detail of the top of the real one..

 

WIP233_zpshcazef40.jpg

 

..I had made a jig as part of the etch PE fret that sets out this shape as it sits on a main truss section (also in the PE), so I taped that down over a scale drawing to have reference as to the angles & layout involved..

 

WIP225_zpswptefb05.jpg

 

..I couldn't find any 2mm 'U' shape brass channel, so I made some out of litho - I had also made a detailed laminate for the fronts of the main posts as these have some fixtures & holes in them

 

WIP226_zpsdoyp0bim.jpg

 

..they were cut to size and the laminates added..

 

WIP227_zpsnfhc1fxn.jpg

 

WIP228_zpsbzff3cdi.jpg

 

..they were then laid down over the jig - I very nearly assembled it all backwards - thankfully noticed just after this pic was taken..

 

WIP229_zps6fhwbi7r.jpg

 

..and assembled - I added some strengthening bits of plastic and followed up bay assembling laminates of the structural braces that are part of the overall structure..

 

WIP230_zps4mu9nyvh.jpg

 

..and the basic structure is complete - there is lots more to go on this, but I can use it as the 'keel' of the cockpit structure.. (so it had to be right :) )

 

WIP231_zpsb8n3l92z.jpg

 

..thats it for today - what with the long weekend in the UK, I might even be back tomorrow :)
 

TTFN
Peter

 

 

 

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Peter - do not use drawing 117-33101 to obtain tire and wheel dimensions.  That drawing is effective on P-51H only.  That aircraft had entirely different landing gear.  The dead giveaway is the 117 prefix.  That was used for P-51H specific drawings only.  I had the same problem you currently have - getting fo-sho dimensions for the B/C/D/K wheels and tires (they are the same for those models).  Go with 27 x 9.5, and 15.5 x 9.75 or 10.00.  I promise - that is correct.

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thanks folks :)

 

a little more done..

 

I started to shape the rollover casting at the top of the 'A' frame behind the seat - just a chunk of brass shaped to a PE template I got from the drawing..

 

WIP235_zpsgvuqpni0.jpg

 

..and once it was finished it was added in place..

 

WIP241_zpsiwno0jiu.jpg

 

..also added some of the bigger bolts to the assembly - a few more to go..

 

WIP240_zpsqnulawkw.jpg

 

..I used some 3.2mm 'U' shaped brass channel to form the fuselage longerons - the PE structures have been designed to fit into the channel. These were again bent from the scaled drawing with the kink in the lower one being done by slitting it. bending it, and soldering it back up..

 

WIP239_zpsucqjs00u.jpg

 

..once I had the longerons made, I had to start thinking about a jig so I can assemble the sides - I used the drawings I made doing the PE and derived enough to set out some templates forwhere the longerons sit at front & rear. I also marked where the major fuselage stations are and will work this up into a proper jig..

 

it's just resting together for now..

 

WIP236_zpsuhjpcgkn.jpg

 

WIP237_zpsucutpcnt.jpg

 

WIP238_zpsnifpae1i.jpg

 

..I think I need to do the sides as units so I can remove them and detail them otherwise it would be tricky to just work the whole coskpit up from this assembled state - I would be forever trying to reach inside & wll likely get frustrated :)

 

..it should serve useful to get everything lined up though..

 

TTFN

 

Peter

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Peter, the longerons are not U shaped, they are H shaped, this is very apparent on the upper longerons in an open cockpit, but not as much on the lower ones.

 

Upper left hand longeron 102-31120 viewed from ahead and slightly inside the fuselage:

 

Eome4Ol.png

view from outside frame:

xuTPVUz.png

 

Lower longeron 102-31121 from inside the frame:

 

MO51FqA.png

 

From outside the frame:

 

mrmskjh.png

 

cockpit wall sub assembly 102-31107 inside view from above:

 

NwdCeK9.png

 

from below:

 

06On3Sd.png

 

Here you can see how obvious it is, there are no covers or special pieces to clean up the lines, the channel along the cockpit edge is the actual longeron:

 

nGhahm8.jpg

 

Something I would add in this case is to make sure and look at the BOM for the part, it will tell you what material to make the part from.  This may be obvious in the case of  .064 aluminum sheet and similar, but in this case it gives the material C194-A. This generally means it's an extruded channel.  For those there are two sources of info available to you for ommon channels used by NAA.  The first is the P-51 Structural Repair Manual, starting on page 440 it lists dozens of extrusion shapes and their specific dimensions. Looking through there we find no C194-A channels listed, however on 445 there are two channels that looks suspiciously close to the ones for the upper and lower longerons labelled 3E8T and 3E13A, keep those in mind.  Those numbers denote NAA common component drawing numbers.  The NAA Standard Drawings that apply to P-51 also happen to be indexed on Aircorps Library.  Searching for 3E8 get's me this page, which if you read the notes at the bottom carefully, you will find specifically says that 3E8 was formerly called C194. I am sure if you put in 3E13 you'd find the same channel that was used in the lower longeron drawing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by rtwpsom2

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Keep it up, guys. 

This is some excellent reading for the morning.

The shape of the longerons may look like a problem in Houston, but I'm sure Peter will overcome this with his magic wand in no time.

:popcorn:

 

Juraj

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WIP238_zpsnifpae1i.jpg

You can also run the slot to the edge, slide one side out, roll the jig onto its'side, and work on one side at a time.  Just sayin'.

 

Nicely done, Peter.  Great details.

 

rtwpsom2, great knowledge base.  It's always enjoyable making minute discoveries such as you've conveyed.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

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4 hours ago, rtwpsom2 said:

Peter, the longerons are not U shaped, they are H shaped, this is very apparent on the upper longerons in an open cockpit, but not as much on the lower ones.

 

Here you can see how obvious it is, there are no covers or special pieces to clean up the lines, the channel along the cockpit edge is the actual longeron:

 

nGhahm8.jpg

 

 

 

 

Oh my - rtwpsom2, you just demonstrated the power of having a wingman on a build like this :)

 

for some reason I thought the top of the 'H' was covered at the cockpit sill, but I can see now that it is not. I had also wondered how it tapers and is open where it loses one side of the 'H' after the seat area so your CAD is super helpful in setting this out in a way a drawing is not so obvious

 

The good news it is an easy fix - I just ordered some 3mm H section so will make them up again - I will leave the bottoms as they are less obvious and that is the section / dimension all the station parts will fit into

 

Marvelous - that could have been a major schoolboy error!

 

Thanks again

 

Peter

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