Flew on a 737 MAX yesterday

[vince14]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:22 AM, MikeMaben said:

However ...  those crashes were by foreign airlines whose pilot trainging was

insufficient.

Except that Boeing itself convinced the FAA and the airlines that additional training on the MAX wasn’t required because Boeing wanted to save costs. Even experienced US pilot’s couldn’t react in time to the MCAS problem in the simulator. Ethiopian Airlines, in fact, has one of the best training programmes in the world.

[Violator1991]

3 hours ago, MikeMaben said:

 

Also including false and misleading statements. Overly dramatized and playing upon viewers emotion,  not intellect.

No, not overly dramatized. Nothing is, when 346 people die.

My personal aviation taste and likes always go for Boeing over the Airbus aircraft and I do not care which company sells more planes. I just want aviation and flying to be safe... and managed by people who care about it more than their greed, graphs, charts, stocks, boards, CEO's, profits and whatever hell else. 

 

 

 

[MikeMaben]

6 hours ago, Violator1991 said:

No, not overly dramatized. Nothing is, when 346 people die.

My personal aviation taste and likes always go for Boeing over the Airbus aircraft and I do not care which company sells more planes. I just want aviation and flying to be safe... and managed by people who care about it more than their greed, graphs, charts, stocks, boards, CEO's, profits and whatever hell else.

Don't we all.

I hope you know I meant their presentation was overly dramatized, not the tragedy itself.

It's obvious they had decided who was guilty and who wasn't , right from the beginning.

[MikeMaben]

7 hours ago, vince14 said:

Except that Boeing itself convinced the FAA and the airlines that additional training on the MAX wasn’t required because Boeing wanted to save costs. Even experienced US pilot’s couldn’t react in time to the MCAS problem in the simulator. Ethiopian Airlines, in fact, has one of the best training programmes in the world.

That's not true , hundreds of pilots flew the Max and 2 crashed. It's also not true (as stated by the NYTimes) that no one was informed

about the system. They didn't require simulator time but the did have handbooks in the aircraft explaining the procedure. I'm not excusing

Boeing , they were going cheap and I watched it happen over the 27 years I was there. You could see it start after Boeing bought MD.

The then CEO retired and all of the remaining board members were ex MD.  The place was invaded by people with clipboars wandering around

looking for anything to cut costs.. They even closed one of the largest restrooms (later reopened).

The flight and voice recorders pretty much explaing why the crashed.

[b757captain]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:21 AM, vince14 said:

Except that Boeing itself convinced the FAA and the airlines that additional training on the MAX wasn’t required because Boeing wanted to save costs. Even experienced US pilot’s couldn’t react in time to the MCAS problem in the simulator. Ethiopian Airlines, in fact, has one of the best training programmes in the world.

 

Three statements here - first one, agree, though word is finally coming out that B was not singularly responsible for this, a large 737-centric US airline had a big hand in it as well. Second statement, sorry, no truth to this. Multiple (not just US pilots but many from other parts of the world) recreated the crash scenarios in the sim, almost all recovered. Granted, they had fore-knowledge of the situation by then. Final statement, violently disagree, based on personal experience.

 

Here's my disclaimer - 33 years in the cockpit of 737s (200 thru 800 - no, I did not fly the Max), 757s (my favorite airplane) and 767s. The last 12 years of my career was spent outside the US. I flew for several middle eastern carriers, flew for a Chinese airline, and finished my last three years in Japan. Importantly for this diatribe, I also flew for Ethiopian. I spent enough time outside the US training system (I was a line and sim check airman on the 757/767 for the last two airlines I worked for) that I learned the insides/outsides of the EASA training system (TRI at several airlines), the Chinese system, and "the Japanese way" where I finished up my career as a "checker".

 

In my opinion (yes, I have one until it's banned!) Ethiopian had the absolute worst training program I was ever involved in. I saw blatant, in your face attempted and actual violations of industry norms, all ignored or papered over by the airline and the Ethiopian regulator. I saw physical abuse directed at the Ethiopian pilots - in the sim by the instructor though there were stories that it happened occasionally in the cockpit as well. My personal experience with this came to an abrupt halt when I intervened as the instructor was hitting the FO. As a side note, this also happened in Japan in my presence once. There the airline took action to make sure that type of behavior never happened again. At Ethiopian they almost fired me because I didn't understand "their" culture. Sorry, but that type of behavior is NEVER acceptable in any professional environment, or any environment outside of the WWF.

 

Ok, back to Ethiopian training. I will admit that my experience is dated by a few years and "maybe" things have improved, though I doubt it for reasons I will expand upon in the next paragraph. Frankly their training was awful. So many things were substandard I can't name them all. Their line training was pretty good and the flying itself was fun mostly, though every other aspect of working there was dreadful. The worst though, which made for an easy decision not to extend beyond the basic contract, was that I was there as the first of the MPL pilots were hitting the line, and (I was on the 737 fleet there) by the time I left almost all the 737 FOs were MPL. Frankly they couldn't fly an airplane. Sure, they had a few hundred hours of sim time but very little actual hands-on stick time and it showed. 

 

Now, why do I think their training has not improved? Because (again, my opinion here, as long as I'm allowed to have one) across the board, worldwide, training and training standards have degraded. My answer to why is easy - sort of:

 

1. The airplanes have become much easier to fly, but the environment has become much more complicated. Training these days consists of more regulatory compliance and less flying skill. Another result of easier-to-fly airplanes is that pilots are less "connected" to their airplanes than previously. In the old days (I bet everybody hates that phrase!) of steam gauge airplanes we spent much more of our cockpit prep time using maps, charts, etc. setting up the panel which was an important step in "connecting" with the airplane. Nowadays you jump in, the FO loads the box, the captain sets his altimeter and it's off into the wild blue yonder. This has created a new phrase in the lexicon. "Startle Factor". That is the new buzz phrase when things go pear-shaped. It's because the crews see so few failures that any one of significance catches them by surprise and their reactions are delayed while brains struggle to catch up. I hate that phrase.

 

2. Using modern airplane systems as a tool, not a crutch. Disclaimer: I am a transitional old fart. I spent the first 10 years of my airline career on steam gauge airplanes and the rest on modern EFIS platforms, and I love EFIS, as long as it is used as a tool, not a crutch. Way too much of that currently. I was taught by crusty old farts and most of the lessons learned from them stayed in the front of my pea brain over the years, to which I attribute much of the success of a long accident/incident/violation-free and mostly trouble-free career. But guys like me are dinosaurs and airlines don't want us training the new guys anymore. And that includes US airlines and training programs, just so you don't think I think things are great here but the rest of the world sucks.

 

3. Airlines as an actual profitable business: The airline business is a weird one, no doubt. On the face, I can't see how any of them actually make money (long term few actually do) and to an airline exec, excess training dollars are wasted dollars so they generally spend as little as they can get away with. Until it bites them in the ass. We have seen over the years a massive improvement in safety which has many reasons, but when we do see a crash, more and more the outcome boils down to whether the flight crew can remember basic flying skills. And more and more they don't have them to begin with.

 

How does all this relate to the 737Max? Yes, B screwed the pooch, and yes, they continue to screw the pooch for reasons already stated in other posts. Would I fly the Max today? Yes. Would I have flown the Max after the crashes? Probably, though as more information came out about what really went on behind the scenes at B, maybe not. Unlike what the majority of the internet and social media crowd would tell you, the crews on both Max crashes failed to do three basic things: they did not perform the memory items for unreliable airspeed; due to this the problem escalated then they did not do the memory items for runaway trim (yes, this was MCAS but it's still a runaway trim); and they didn't apply basic airmanship as things continued to deteriorate. And yes, they were products of their respective (and the industry "new normal") training programs.

 

Ok, I've run out of steam - time to go enjoy retirement.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Mark P]

Well....as an ex training/check captain myself, retirement is all its cracked up to be. Surprisingly, I don't miss it. When I start to lament my decision to leave, I just re-focus on all the crap we contended with and I quickly snap back into my "happy place".

 

Mark Proulx

[John1]

Mark (b757Captain) - thanks for a very detailed post based on your actual knowledge.  it's easy for internet experts (such as myself) to throw out info but your post carries significantly more weight.   

 

One thing I'll ask, feel free to answer if you wish - do you think that US based pilots have also lost some of their basic airmanship skills / ability to quickly manage unexpected situations due to today's planes being so heavily automated?    I know it's not a US airline, but I think back to the Asiana 777 crash at SFO a few years ago, where it appears that the entire flight crew fell apart when they had to revert to basic airmanship instead of depending on "Otto Pilot" to comply with a sudden directive from ATC.  

[Mark P]

Well, I can't speak to US based pilots specifically, as I am in Canada. However, I would think that our countries are similar in the way the aviation industry operates.

 

Yes, I do agree that automation has impacted basic airmanship skills. I saw, especially in younger pilots, a reluctance to turn off the A/P and fly the airplane, taking advantage of a two-man crew. They would get too deep into a situation before reverting to "hand flying" never really getting a "feel" for things. When the A/P was doing something they didn't want to see happen (or couldn't understand), they would struggle trying to figure out why (adding to the stress of the event) instead of just turning off the A/P and doing to the airplane what YOU wanted to do. This isn't helped when the SOP's of the airlines really drive you towards using the A/P, not helped by the longer duty days that pilots now must deal with and pilots hired with insufficient experience.  

 

Just my take...

 

Mark Proulx

[Pete Fleischmann]

Mark and Mark P pretty much nailed it. As I close in on 20,000 hours, 26 years in the industry, Captain , and check airman, I whole heartily agree with their assessments.

 

cheers

P

[Juggernut]

Having been closely associated with a bunch of commercial pilot's in my lifetime both airline and corporate (I'm a mechanic), they have, at times, told me that with the advances in aviation technoiogy, pilot's have, in some cases, been reduced to "condition monitors" instead of pilot's.  Meaning that they monitor the aircraft's systems and in the event the aircraft can't or doesn't correct it's own faults (usually infinitely faster than a human could react), the pilot's can then intervene...otherwise they just work the radio's, set up and engage the aircraft's systems.  The aircraft have become so advanced that the aircraft's' systems can do most of the pilot's functions, including landing the aircraft.   I'm just relaying what I've been told in years past and not sure I entirely subscribe to the premise.

[Dope737]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:21 AM, vince14 said:

 Even experienced US pilot’s couldn’t react in time to the MCAS problem in the simulator.

 

Not true.  The procedure is for a "RUN AWAY STAB TRIM".  It's been in the manual long before MCAS.

 

[b757captain]

6 hours ago, John1 said:

Mark (b757Captain) - thanks for a very detailed post based on your actual knowledge.  it's easy for internet experts (such as myself) to throw out info but your post carries significantly more weight.   

 

One thing I'll ask, feel free to answer if you wish - do you think that US based pilots have also lost some of their basic airmanship skills / ability to quickly manage unexpected situations due to today's planes being so heavily automated?    I know it's not a US airline, but I think back to the Asiana 777 crash at SFO a few years ago, where it appears that the entire flight crew fell apart when they had to revert to basic airmanship instead of depending on "Otto Pilot" to comply with a sudden directive from ATC.  

 

Since I spent the last quite a few years of my career outside the US I can't specifically say, other than through anecdotal stories from friends in the US, much about the skill levels or degradation of skills for US pilots. As a rule the US has always held a slight advantage by having a large pool of very qualified pilots for the airlines to choose from. While the incoming European pilot will average about 300 to 400 hours and will have attended an ab initio training program, the average for the US majors is still averaging 4000 to 6000 hours.  I flew with a bunch of European-trained pilots and saw that they were very professional and had very little difference in skill level vs. US pilots with one exception: the US pilots, on average, were more comfortable with the automation off. There's a lot to be said for hands-on-stick time. That advantage diminished as the EU pilots gained stick time.

 

Automation does absolutely degrade one's skills. It's tough to say at the the end of a long duty day "I'm going to hand-fly this sucker all the way from top of decent to a minimums approach". And that pilot absolutely should NOT do that, in that circumstance! But that can become the norm and coupled with many airlines' "strong suggestion" or in one specific ME airline's written policy of using the automation all the time, hand flying skills and airmanship suffers. 

 

The Asiana crash really isn't a stellar example because there were so may other factors involved, including manufacturer/aircraft type differences causing confusion for the Captain (in training) to some pretty severe cultural issues that caused that cockpit to literally be an accident waiting to happen. I like to point to Air France 447 and the Emirates (can't remember the flight #) crash in Dubai where they stuffed up the go-around as perfect examples of the failures of modern training and pilot skills. As well as both of the Max crashes.

 

Think of a pilot's skill set as an insurance policy - if that skill set deteriorates the margin of safety deteriorates as well. And that skill set both US and worldwide pilots has deteriorated in some ways but has increase in others. In my opinion, making better "system managers" will not save the day when a guy needs to reach into his bag-o-tricks and pull out a win, and that is the skill set that is suffering. Overall I think that while the US (and world) safety record can't statistically get much better, for years we have been seeing an increase in incidents that, barring one or two last second saves (or miracles) would have been crashes with massive loss of life. This is going to continue to increase to the point that we will eventually see more accidents. And a bunch of them will have, as a contributing factor, the lack of basic airmanship as a big part.

 

As a way to look to the future, think of it this way: when I aspired to make flying a career (back in the Stone Age of the early 80s) flying as a career was attractive, and the carrot on the end of the stick is that it could be very lucrative as well. The profession could and did attract some of "the best and the brightest", people who could choose between lots of lucrative careers. Nowadays an airline career had declined to the point that it is, to be blunt, a pretty crappy lifestyle and many young people are bypassing it for other careers. I don't see that changing any time soon, if ever. 

 

One positive sign I see is in demographics. As the BB generation retires, the pilot shortages (that are happening now) will only increase. There's a chance that airline execs will come to their senses and figure out that they need to make the career attractive again. Unfortunately I am at heart a realist and think they will try every other option before coming to this conclusion and it will be too little, too late.

 

MarkP, I'm with you, brother! I walked away just before the whole Covid mess started so I missed that debacle, thank goodness. A ton of my (age equivalent) compadres did the same and retired early which has just exacerbated the problem we're seeing now. I haven't set foot on an airplane since and don't miss it at all. 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by b757captain

[Mark P]

I took early retirement as they offered us " miserable old bastards" a financial carrot that was just too good to pass up. COVID made it even easier to go. As much as I loved my job, being treated/compensated extremely well, I am glad to leave it all in the rear view mirror. It was time for a younger group to advance the profession and continue the fight for safer skies.

 

Mark Proulx

[MikeMaben]

Just now, Mark P said:

             I am glad to leave it all in the rear view mirror.

 

Me too Mark, as an inspector (process, gear lab and receiving inspection) I got to know a lot of good people.

They're the only thing I miss. After retiring it took me a year to stop looking at the clock.

[Dope737]

In the first video, that FO didn't mention that on the second accident, the FO did do the correct procedure and turned off the electric trim thus turning off the MCAS.  But because of there speed toward the ground, the didn't have enough elevator authority to overcome the full nose down trim of the horizontal stab.  At a certain airspeed, the stab cannot be moved using the manual trim wheel.