monthebiff Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Interesting shots of the underside of your Hurricane there Quang,looks like Fly have got the positioning of the drain holes and rear lifting eyes spot on. Also the rivet detail on the wings look pretty good, they have also got it about right on the inner lower wing which begs the question as to why they did not continue this on the radiator housing?? This what I did on my PCM radiator........ Also quite interested to see Fly's rendition of the U/C doors. Keep up the great work on this one . Regards. Andy mywifehatesmodels, Sakai, 109 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quang Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 Interesting shots of the underside of your Hurricane there Quang,looks like Fly have got the positioning of the drain holes and rear lifting eyes spot on. Also the rivet detail on the wings look pretty good, they have also got it about right on the inner lower wing which begs the question as to why they did not continue this on the radiator housing?? This what I did on my PCM radiator........ Also quite interested to see Fly's rendition of the U/C doors. Keep up the great work on this one . Regards. Andy The drain holes are non-existent on the Fly kit. I added them on. I couldn't find any picture with the rivet pattern on the radiator and Vokes filter housings. Maybe some member can help? Otherwise I'll use yours as a reference On the FLY, the u/c doors have rivets on the outer side only. Of more concern, IMO they're too thin. Having said that I don't think I'll correct it because I hate working on u/c. Thanks Andy for your comment. Your Hurri build will always be an inspiration to me. Cheers, Quang Sakai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quang Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 That's coming along really well Quang. As I'm still fiddling about with the cockpit, and impatient to see as much completed aeroplane as you've got now! As to your questions. I skimmed through a couple of dozen Hurricane titles and found one small fuzzy photo of a Burma Hurri with only the two inner cannon fitted. The outer fairing location appears as a smooth leading edge, and given the placement I'm inclined to think a sheet metal cover would be fitted It's the sort of simple shape a car garage with a panel beater on staff could hammer out, rather than using fabric patches which can be seen to 'dish' under normal aerodynamic loads even just covering the MG ports. The accompanying text referred to a shortage of AP ammunition, though how long that lasted for isn't mentioned in the section I read. The notoriously light armour of Japanese planes in 1942 might also have been a factor. I couldn't find any desert ones, but I skimmed rather than read carefully. No photos however. The Russians also fitted two of their own type of cannon, but extremely crudely, just poking them through the Hispano brackets with no attempt at fairing them and all four Hispano fairings in place. The wing centre section according to the Pilot's notes is zero dihedral, and the outer planes are 3º30" on the datum line. Matt in his build handily interprets this as 1º30" on the upper surfaces, and due to the wing taper 5º on the undersides. I found an in-flight photo of AX-X (one of the schemes offered by Fly) with the outer cannons removed. The leading edge appears smooth. Think I'll go the metal panel route. I slipped the assembled wings onto the spar I made. No glue. The dihedral is spot on. A testimony to Fly's precision fit. Sakai and Chek 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMaben Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Hey Quang, looking good. Regarding the missing outer cannons, they were removed in the field, not specifically for weight reduction, but due to a temporary shortage of ammunition. Thus the mod was also temporary, which might lead one to assume that the openings were faired over with fabric which would have been easily removed to replace the missing gun (just an assumption). There are several photos of 2 cannon MkIIs in the desert (google 94 squadron) one of which shows one a/c with the outer cannon protruding fairing left on but no cannon. Also, there were fabric drain holes in the ailerons and vert stab as well. The MkI fabric wing had them all over (for obvious reasons). Oddly, the drain holes in the MkII tail were in the stabilizer, not the elevators (3 on each side). The PCM kit has them. Anyway, you're crafting a nice looking MkIIc, keep havin' fun ! Sakai and quang 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quang Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 I remember seeing a photo of a Hurri with the gun fairing left but the one I wish to model (1 sqn SAAF) had a smooth leading edge. By some accounts, the a/c arrive in the ME with the outboard guns already removed. In that case, should the shell ejection openings be blanked as well? I checked the drain holes on a friend's PCM Mk.1 but didn't find any in the ailerons or the stab. Still have to find a photo to see their exact location. Anyhow thank you so much for the heads-up. Cheers, Q Sakai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 By some accounts, the a/c arrive in the ME with the outboard guns already removed. In that case, should the shell ejection openings be blanked as well? Q On balance I would say not. Although the Hurricanes with the Vickers guns are famed as tankbusters, the 4 x 20mm installation was still very fearsome against ground targets, and ammo shortage is the reason most often mentioned for removing the outer guns. If they're unloaded, then they're just dead weight and worth removing, but I suspect the situation was only temporary. But just my opinion. Moving on to radiators and rivets, I could only find nice clear shots of Mk I types removed, apart from this one lying around the BBMF's hangar showing some interior detail which might be useful. The rest are a montage of views from a variety of IIs and XIIs. I'm not sure if the bracing strut across the intake mouth is modern or period. Or different subcontractors maybe. When in genuine doubt, I'll usually go with what looks better. Sakai, quang and airscale 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMaben Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) , and ammo shortage is the reason most often mentioned for removing the outer guns. If they're unloaded, then they're just dead weight and worth removing, but I suspect the situation was only temporary. But just my opinion. I lean in this direction with Chek, there are photos of MkIIc's arriving with 4 cannon, and with the battlefield in North Africa constantly moving, it was likely that maintaining adequate supplies was difficult. In any case, a model with those areas covered/patched it wouldn't matter whether the patches were supposed to be metal or fabric Re the drain holes, Bentley's drawing (earliest MkI) shows drain holes in all the lower fabriced areas (aft horizontal stab, not elevators) located next to each rib on the outboard side. If you can get ahold of a copy of the Aero Detail, there's a photo on pg.39 of the bottom of the tail where you can see drain holes in both the elevators and the stabilizers. It makes sense they would have kept those throughout. My PCM kit has them in the ailerons but not the tail surfaces. Keep on truckin' Edited July 23, 2016 by MikeMaben Sakai, 109, quang and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Ray Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I found a couple of pics of two-cannon Mk.IIc's. "Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #57: Hurricane Aces 1941-45" page 56, HL627/AXoX of SAAF No.1 SQDN. Two outer cannon removed, but it is hard to say what they did to cover the holes. Arco-Aircam Aviation Series #33: Hawker Hurricane Mk.I/IV, first page after the profiles (no page numbers!), BP389/GUoG, No.94 SQDN. Two outer cannon removed, looks like sheet metal covers that are a different color than light camo color. Edit: Found another. Aircam book again. 2nd page before the color profiles. HL887/AKoW of No.213 SQDN, outboard cannon removed, but can't see what they did with the fairing hole. Don't know if that is much help, but that is what I found. Chek and quang 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Ray Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Not a African theatre aircraft, but another a/c with two cannon fit is on page #80 of the Aces book, HW620/HMoE of No.136 SQDN in Chittagong, CBI theatre. Outer cannon removed, looks like sheet metal cover. quang and Chek 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quang Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 I found a couple of pics of two-cannon Mk.IIc's. "Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #57: Hurricane Aces 1941-45" page 56, HL627/AXoX of SAAF No.1 SQDN. Two outer cannon removed, but it is hard to say what they did to cover the holes. Arco-Aircam Aviation Series #33: Hawker Hurricane Mk.I/IV, first page after the profiles (no page numbers!), BP389/GUoG, No.94 SQDN. Two outer cannon removed, looks like sheet metal covers that are a different color than light camo color. Edit: Found another. Aircam book again. 2nd page before the color profiles. HL887/AKoW of No.213 SQDN, outboard cannon removed, but can't see what they did with the fairing hole. Don't know if that is much help, but that is what I found. Aircam eh? And I thought I was old school! I found a photo of a crashed 2-cannon MkIIc in the desert. Cover on missing cannon appears to be canvas or thin metal panel . Think I'll go the metal patch route. I lean in this direction with Chek, there are photos of MkIIc's arriving with 4 cannon, and with the battlefield in North Africa constantly moving, it was likely that maintaining adequate supplies was difficult. In any case, a model with those areas covered/patched it wouldn't matter whether the patches were supposed to be metal or fabric Re the drain holes, Bentley's drawing (earliest MkI) shows drain holes in all the lower fabriced areas (aft horizontal stab, not elevators) located next to each rib on the outboard side. If you can get ahold of a copy of the Aero Detail, there's a photo on pg.39 of the bottom of the tail where you can see drain holes in both the elevators and the stabilizers. It makes sense they would have kept those throughout. My PCM kit has them in the ailerons but not the tail surfaces. I checked Bentley and Aero Detail. I can see the drain holes now that you mentioned them. Thanks for the heads-up! On balance I would say not. Although the Hurricanes with the Vickers guns are famed as tankbusters, the 4 x 20mm installation was still very fearsome against ground targets, and ammo shortage is the reason most often mentioned for removing the outer guns. If they're unloaded, then they're just dead weight and worth removing, but I suspect the situation was only temporary. But just my opinion. Moving on to radiators and rivets, I could only find nice clear shots of Mk I types removed, apart from this one lying around the BBMF's hangar showing some interior detail which might be useful. The rest are a montage of views from a variety of IIs and XIIs. I'm not sure if the bracing strut across the intake mouth is modern or period. Or different subcontractors maybe. When in genuine doubt, I'll usually go with what looks better. Thank you C for the photos. A good friend of mine gave me some Archer rivets to try out. I will put your pics to good use. Am currently working on the landing lights. Don't know what the 2 (usually 3) curved spokes are for but they're hard to model! Again thank you all for your contribution to this build. Cheerio, Quang Sakai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) The landing light 'spiral' are the two suspension arms and the cable run. The bulb faces to the rear into the reflector. The way I do them is bend thin copper wire (single core phone wire works) to shape, then flatten it by rolling it between a hard steel shaft and a firm steel base. Q- edit for more detail here. I bought a string of toy pearl beads years ago which gives me a selection of nice sphere sizes. So I can drill a hole in some wood, place a piece of thick foil (Indian and Chinese take away foil dishes are great, but thick foil baking trays can be bought at a supermarket), over the hole then lightly tap a bead to form the reflector dish. Lift out the reflector and pierce the rear opening. Form a correctly sized ring with phone wire around a dowel or brush handle (tip: I pull a length of wire through a pad of fine wire wool pinched around it just with fingers. Three or four pulls through strips the chrome plating off leaving bare copper wire which paints and superglues far more easily than chrome). Set the trimmed reflector onto the ring and glue. Then glue the two flattened pre-prepared 'arms' to a slug of preferably black stretched sprue at the appropriate angles, then lay a couple of wires from multicore household electrical wiring to the centre as the power feed and attach to the front of the reflector. When all is set and detail painted, I use sprue fixed with epoxy for peace of mind attached to the rear of the reflector anchored out of sight to the rear of the aperture, and I'll use thin PETG sheet from packaging to form the cover. Kit transparencies are usually very thick, and you want the effort you've put in to be seen! While looking for those radiator pics, I found these fabric windows, while we're on the subject, if you feel like a further challenge. I did them once on that Swordfish using the cellophane wrapper of a cigarette pack and and airmail paper bonded to a square of plasticard. I haven't decided if it's worth doing again, except maybe to emphasize the fabric fin. And I'm not even sure they still make 'airmail paper'! Edited July 24, 2016 by Chek Sakai 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quang Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 The landing light 'spiral' are the two suspension arms and the cable run. The bulb faces to the rear into the reflector. The way I do them is bend thin copper wire (single core phone wire works) to shape, then flatten it by rolling it between a hard steel shaft and a firm steel base. . While looking for those radiator pics, I found these fabric windows, if you feel like a further challenge. I did them once on that Swordfish using the cellophane wrapper of a cigarette pack and and airmail paper bonded to a square of plasticard. I haven't decided if it's worth doing again, except maybe to emphasize the fabric fin. And I'm not even sure they still make 'airmail paper'! I'm tempted to use airmail paper for my emails. Would make them go faster Thanks C for the the spiral suspension tip and details. As for the fabric windows, I think I'd pass. Gotta stop somewhere! Cheers, Q Chek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Fantastic work - and great reference thread!! Iain Chek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kagemusha Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Am currently working on the landing lights. Don't know what the 2 (usually 3) curved spokes are for but they're hard to model! Again thank you all for your contribution to this build. Cheerio, Quang They're provided in the kit, etch parts 52. Chek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 They're provided in the kit, etch parts 52. Doh! So they are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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