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How much variation is allowed for paint companies when trying to produce a color to FS595

boom175

By boom175
in Aviation Discussion & Research

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Juggernut

Juggernut

Posted
Posted (edited)

FS595 is now obsolete.  There is a new spec that replaces it but my memory isn't as good as it used to be and I can't remember the replacement spec but most, if not all the colors in the 595 are in the new spec.  Google will probably be useful in that search.  All paint, as well as almost everything purchased by the US Gov't. for the military is produced to a MIL spec.  In that spec it will dictate which and how much of each component part makes up paint, how it performs and what, if any, tolerances are allowed.    If it doesn't meet the mil spec, it doesn't get purchased...therefore, the variation will most likely be very minimal.  There are also different paints/coatings that may be required to meet the mil spec as well.  Chemical resistant paints (I forget the acronym for chem resistant coating) may meet the mil spec but may be a different hue than a regular epoxy paint... The material the paint is applied to may also vary the hue of a given color.

 

EDIT:  I remember what the chemical resistant paint acronym is...CARC - Chemical Agent Resistant Coating.  Highly toxic if you sand or abrade it after it dries and inhale the dust.

Edited by Juggernut
Remembered what the chemical resistant paint is called.
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Juggernut

Juggernut

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39 minutes ago, LSP_Mike said:

Not always true. Miramar Air Station is just down the road from a Sherwin Williams and Frazee paints. Guess where they go for paint for touch ups?

 

Well, if they do that on aircraft, it's outside of the "normal" FAR for gov't aquisition.  If they're actual combat jets and not Top Gun trainers, I would imagine they wouldn't do that as the radar absorption characteristics of Sherwin Williams and Frazee paints I"ll bet is a LOT different from what is approved by MIL spec and the airframe manufacturer.

 

If it's just painting the maintenance stands and wall of the barracks, I'd think they can go anywhere they want.

Edited by Juggernut
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AlbertD

AlbertD

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4 hours ago, LSP_Mike said:

Not always true. Miramar Air Station is just down the road from a Sherwin Williams and Frazee paints. Guess where they go for paint for touch ups?

What a great advertisement that would be for Sherman Williams. "We sell the only house paint that can stand up to mach 2 speeds and multiple carrier landings in foul weather".

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Juggernut

Juggernut

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3 hours ago, D.B. Andrus said:

Sherwin Williams is in the Mil-Spec business as well as consumer/commercial:

 

https://industrial.sherwin-williams.com/content/sherwin-williams/pcg/industrial-sw-com/na/us/en/general-industrial/catalog/category/products-by-industry/military/mil-spec-coatings.10656567.html

 

Nice.  I wonder if you can get the Mil-spec paint from your local SW dealer... I'd think not but I just don't know.

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DonH

DonH

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On 12/19/2020 at 7:01 AM, Jennings Heilig said:

Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about model paint :clap2:

 

Don't be too hasty there Jennings. I am sure there are forums just like this one for people who paint the real thing. I bet they discuss topics at length along the lines of:

"Which manufacturer produces the best FS36118?"

"What is the best white to use for insignia?"

"Pre-shading - fact or fiction?"

"Which paint gun is best for covering large areas?"

"Do you use paint mats to mask camo or do you free-hand?"

 

...and the list goes on.

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Iain

Iain

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Indeed!

 

When I worked on military flight sims we'd get stocks of the official paints - and they could vary quite a bit between batches, let alone the affects of ageing/exposure/damage.

 

And an old Vulcan crew chief friend told me where they got the paint for 'Red Flag' one year - that won't have matched any Govt. spec!  ;)

 

Iain

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jenshb

jenshb

Posted
Posted

When I worked on instrument cluster programs for cars, a typical customer specification for painted and printed parts was a colour matched to RAL, and a tolerance of DeltaE of 1.0 in the CIE L*a*b system.  This would result in a very slight, perceptible colour difference if seen side by side, but maybe not perceptible from car to car.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_difference

 

Don't know what tolerance government agencies have to their paint specs though...

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Juggernut

Juggernut

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4 hours ago, RadBaron said:

 

I can't speak for current serving military aircraft, but if modellers knew how little thought was given to painting and  touchups on most full-size aircraft, their heads would...

e795d3bfaa35b8843bf27b83e65a111d.gif

 

I can't speak for puddle jumper aircraft (I haven't touched one since A&P school in 1987) but in the business jet aviation world, we take pride in the finish of our aircraft and a great deal of time and effort is placed on keeping them looking as good as possible, including polishing leading edges, jet intake lips, and matching paint touchups.  I had to research back three or four logbooks to determine what the colors of paint were on my (figuratively speaking...I was the crew chief) Learjet 35A as the guy who crewed it before me just took a paint sample down to the local auto parts store and bought three colors that "looked" like the correct colors....they weren't even close  but he used them until he was terminated and I got the aircraft.  Things got done correctly thereafter.  The white, green, and blue paints were matched using the actual paint codes from the paint manufacturer (JetGlo) on the aircraft and the owner of the aircraft was very much pleased that his aircraft did not have a patchwork quilt of colors all over it...and they DO notice.

 

Airline aircraft get used quite a bit so they get pretty beat up as far as finishes are concerned.  They aren't down long enough to allow the same amount of attention that business jet aircraft receive.  Airline motto is:  If the airplane is on the ground, it's not making money.  The airlines I worked for (small, regional feeder airlines) just put enough work into the finishes to keep them from corroding and that was about all...but the colors all matched as the procurement of colors was done by our maintenance supply department.  I remember a batch of aircraft we received from another carrier that had to be painted in a couple days in order to get them ready for line service in our colors.  There wasn't time to paint them properly so the painters masked off the various colors and used rollers to apply the paint after scruffing up the existing finish.  From a distance, these aircraft looked the same as our other ones that were factory painted but up close, it looked like what it was....roller applied paint.

 

The overarching theme here.... a great deal of attention is paid to painting and touchup of aircraft.  What gets done and how depends on time and money.

Edited by Juggernut
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RadBaron

RadBaron

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Juggernut said:

 

I can't speak for puddle jumper aircraft (I haven't touched one since A&P school in 1987) but in the business jet aviation world, we take pride in the finish of our aircraft and a great deal of time and effort is placed on keeping them looking as good as possible, including polishing leading edges and jet intake lips and matching paint touchups.  I had to research back three or four logbooks to determine what the colors of paint were on my (figuratively speaking...I was the crew chief) Learjet 35A as the guy who crewed it before me just took a paint sample down to the local auto parts store and bought three colors that "looked" like the correct colors....they weren't even close  but he used them until he was terminated and I got the aircraft.  Things got done correctly thereafter.  The white, green, and blue paints were matched using the actual paint codes from the paint manufacturer (JetGlo) on the aircraft and the owner of the aircraft was very much pleased that his aircraft did not have a patchwork quilt of colors all over it.

 

These days, if the puddle jumpers HAVE paint on them, let alone matching colours, I'm thoroughly impressed :BANGHEAD2:

 

Our Lears/Gulfstreams/Citations are all held to much higher finishing standards, naturally, and whilst I agree that its a good thing to take pride in the details of our work, if you held up samples of Vestral white next to Matterhorn, most mechanics, let alone pilots and owners, would have a hard time differentiating, as I too have found out about previous attempts at refinishes!

 

Having the modelers anal-retentive eye for detail is a double edged sword in our industry, and we are certainly in the minority :D

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mpk

mpk

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/19/2020 at 10:01 AM, Jennings Heilig said:

“Allowed”? There is (despite some people’s belief) no color police. You can label your paint any way you want to.

 

Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about model paint :clap2:

 

Oil!!!! I'M the Colour police! 

 

You spelled it wrong. What else could I do??? Now, hands behind your back and watch your head. There, that's it... (CLONK)

Oh, sorry about that.

 

:ph34r:

 

I am feeling very liberal this week. As a result I must protest at the lack of attention and care given to those who suffer the indignity of colour blindness. :blink:

 

 

 

Edited by mpk
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