1/32 Revell Me 262B-1/U1 Nachtjager

[Guest Vincent]

I will step in and try to explain this rivet/putty thing, maybe it will help some folks here understand how things worked.

 

It all starts with drag. Anything that is not flush with the aircraft surface creates turbulences that result in drag, or loss of performance. There are things that can not be avoided such as intakes, fairings, etc but also things resulting from the construction techniques such as rivets and panel adjustments. A properly constructed aircraft will minimize the effects of the rivets and panel adjustments and as a result the aircraft is meeting a fixed set of performance parameters.

 

The Luftwaffe, like any other airforce, had an aircraft acceptance process, where every new aircraft was visually inspected and test flown to validate that it met the set of performance

 

As the war progressed, more or more skilled aircraft workers got taken away from the factories and sent to combat duties. They were replaced by largely unskilled domestic and foreign workers or, in the case of Messerschmitt, by concentration camps inmates. Unsurprisingly the quality of the aircrafts went down pretty dramatically and, more problematically, the Luftwaffe started to reject a/c in larger and larger numbers. What sort of problems the unskilled workers created ? Mainly 2 : angled rivets and unequal panel gaps. It was therefore decided by the RLM to try to "salvage" as many a/c as possible by using putty and linen strips. Putty can be applied on rivets to "sink" the angled ones in a smooth mass and linen strips can be applied on top of panel lines to close them dowm. Used together, these techniques allowed poorly built a/c to pass the acceptance tests.

 

The use of these techniques was not a universal thing nor a a/c type specific, it was a factory/workshop specific. I'll use the Me109G6 as an example here : Fuselages manufactured by the inmates of Gusen I, Gusen II and Mathausen camps were really badly manufactured and used a lot of linen and putty while the fuselages manufactured by Erla did not. The same was of course true for the 262. Fuselages manufactured in the dispersed workshops were using the putty and the linen while fuselages manufactured by Messerschmitt early one did not have massive amount of putty

 

So there is no "rule" for a given aircraft model unless they all got manufactured at the same place and near the same time

 

Examples

Built in dispersed workshops by non skilled workers. Some rivets and panel lines are puttied over. Note that the putty is related to the subassemblies with the central section of fuselage receiving putty on all the rivets while the rear section is only puttied on the panel gap. That putty was expensive and if it was not needed on some area, it did not get applied

 

 

But the first batches of 262 built in Leipheim (which is the case of Red 10) did not use that amount putty as pictured above.

 

Example of excellent panel joining and rivet work done at Leipheim at the time Red 10 was produced :

Edited January 2, 2021 by Vincent

[johnie hopper]

3 hours ago, Radub said:

The model flaps were designed to be posed in either closed or open positions. There are indentations on the bottom edges of the wings for the pin on the flaps to slot into in the open position. 

The flaps of the 262 were Fowler type and extended outward as well as down. I have seen many models where the flaps were just dropped as if they were hinged at the front, but the real things were a little more complex than that. The pins are essential in achieving the correct position of the deployed flaps. 

Radu 

I'm afraid, that it is impossible to find one point which should be used as for closed as for opened positions. As you are writing the kinematics of the movement has been much more complicated.

 

[Radub]

3 minutes ago, johnie hopper said:

I'm afraid, that it is impossible to find one point which should be used as for closed as for opened positions. As you are writing the kinematics of the movement has been much more complicated.

 

 

 

The model parts were designed in a way that allows for the flaps to be placed accurately in either open or closed position. The pins on the sides of the flaps need to be left in place. In the photos shown by Thunnus above the pins were removed - you can see that the photo-etched parts have cut-outs for the pins. Equally important are the narrow tabs at the front of the flaps, which fit into slots in the wings. Both the tabs at the front and the pins on the sides of the flaps parts are needed to place the flaps accurately. 

HTH 

Radu 

[Brett M]

[Thunnus]

Did I make a goof?  If so, it would not be first time, nor the last.  In my defense, the Revell instructions were not very clear on the ability of the flaps to positioned opened or closed.  In fact, the tabs that protrude from the front edge of the flaps broke when I attempted to move the flaps in-situ.  The tabs are very thin and fragile and will not hold up to much movement so I assumed that the flaps were designed to installed in the up position.  My mistake.  Coincidentally, I ended up breaking off half of those tabs in the process of cleaning up the seams.

 

 

I really appreciate the input that I am receiving on this build!  Especially from knowledgeable peeps like Roger, Johnie, Radu, Vincent, Jerry Crandall and others.  Honored, in fact.  But Radu's statement about the model design of the flaps doesn't quite make sense to me.  Each flap on the model has a single hinge pin on each end.  Each flap opening in the wing has a single locating hole on each end.  If the flap moves out and down when lowered, how could a single hinge pin/hole combination achieve the correct orientation in both positions?

 

Assuming that the diagram that Johnie posted approximates the movement of the Me262B flap, let's say that the red dot is pin/hole location on the Revell flap in the closed position. When the flap is lowered, yellow dot shows where the pin on the flap has moved and would not match the red hole location.  It does not seem physically possible to ensure the correct flap orientation in the down position if the pin/hole location works for the up position.

 

My locating pins are gone so I guess they are irrelevant in my particular case.  I will have to place them by eyeball.  They will look something like this...

 

 

 

Compared to the real thing...

 

 

[scvrobeson]

If it was me, I'd just use metal rod or tube for the pins, should be much more sturdy than the plastic ones.

 

 

 

Matt 

[Radub]

33 minutes ago, Thunnus said:

Did I make a goof? 

 

 

This is not a "goof". The problem is that all existing models before this kit (and aftermarket manufacturers) treat the flaps of the 262 in the same manner as the flaps of the Bf 109, i.e. hinged at the front and dropping straight down. However, the flaps of the 262 are much more complex as they extend out and down. Hopefully these photos will help. I took these photos at the Deutsches Museum in Munich in 2015. At the time the aircraft was being dismantled in order to be moved to the Oberschleissheim facility and many panels were removed, which revealed a lot of information that otherwise would not have been visible. 

 

First, here is a photo of the underside of the flap. As you can see, the flap is not hinged at the front and when deployed there is a noticeable "gap" between the flap and the wing. 

 

 

 

Here is a photo of the flap seen from the back. On the right edge of the flap you can see a "pin" that connects to the wing. The kit flap parts have those pins, one on either side. The Eduard photo-etched parts have indentations for the pins. I recommend that you add those pins to the flaps, one on either side, maybe using metal rods as recommended by Matt above.

If you look at the kit wing parts, you can see the indentations, close to the underside edge, on either side of the flap wells, where these pins are mean to "engage" in the open position. 
In the photo below, at the front of the flap  you can partially see a part of the swing arm. That is the part that was represented by the small tabs at the front of the kit parts The small tabs are intended to go into the long slots cut on either sides of the curved "roof" of the flap well. I recommend that you add those tabs at the front of the flaps. I am sure that if you look at the kit parts and these photos, things will start to make sense, 

 

 

I hope this helps a bit. 

Radu 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Radub

[johnie hopper]

Maybe these pics could help too to understand the kinematics.

Btw I have to agree with John regarding Revell's guideline.

[Radub]

3 minutes ago, johnie hopper said:

Maybe these pics could help too to understand the kinematics.

 

 

Just to make things clear, my point was not about how the flaps move, but rather about how to secure the flaps to the wing in the deployed position. 

Radu 

[johnie hopper]

2 minutes ago, Radub said:

 

Just to make things clear, my point was not about how the flaps move, but rather about how to secure the flaps to the wing in the deployed position. 

Radu 

But how to get them into already glued/completed wings?

[Radub]

2 minutes ago, johnie hopper said:

But how to get them into already glued/completed wings?

 

This is what I am trying to explain.

The flaps can be placed in EITHER closed OR open position.

As i explained above, twice, the pins on the side of the flaps and the tabs at the front of the tabs are absolutely essential. Whatever you do, do not remove the pins on the flap edges and the tabs at the front of the flaps. 

In the closed position, the flaps have to be attached to the wing before the wing halves are glued together, just as the instructions show. 

In the open position, the flaps can be attached to the wing afte the wing halves are glued together. With the pins in place, the flaps simply fall into place in the open position. The placement of the flaps in the open position is quite intuitive with the pins left in place, it makes no sense when the pins are removed. 

Radu 

[johnie hopper]

1 hour ago, Radub said:

 

Just to make things clear, my point was not about how the flaps move, but rather about how to secure the flaps to the wing in the deployed position. 

Radu 

I just thought, that understanding of mechanism could help with correct placing and positioning 

[Grunticus]

1 hour ago, Radub said:

 

This is what I am trying to explain.

The flaps can be placed in EITHER closed OR open position.

As i explained above, twice, the pins on the side of the flaps and the tabs at the front of the tabs are absolutely essential. Whatever you do, do not remove the pins on the flap edges and the tabs at the front of the flaps. 

In the closed position, the flaps have to be attached to the wing before the wing halves are glued together, just as the instructions show. 

In the open position, the flaps can be attached to the wing afte the wing halves are glued together. With the pins in place, the flaps simply fall into place in the open position. The placement of the flaps in the open position is quite intuitive with the pins left in place, it makes no sense when the pins are removed. 

Radu 

 

Thanks Radu. I put a note in the box of the 262 as a future heads-up. Much appreciated.

[Thunnus]

Ahhh... light bulb switches on in my thick skull.

 

What you are saying Radu is that there are TWO hinge pin holes in the wings, one for the closed position and the other for the open position.  Not really a hole but a depression, which I totally missed.  Instructions make no mention of this distinction (unless I missed it) and I was fixated on the the hole and didn't even see the depression.

 

 

And I can see from the photos of the real aircraft that both you and Johnie posted that the hinge pin location on the wings is actually a track.  I think I understand now... thank you very much everyone!  Especially Radu and Johnie. 

 

[Radub]

Hi Thunnus,

Yes, that is correct. When the pins and tabs are left in place on the flap parts, they literally drop into the correct position, either up (before gluing the wing parts together) or down.

You are also right about the "track" system. When I designed the parts I spent a lot of time experimenting with ways to correctly depict the complex flap mechanism, either up or down, in a way that works in injection-moulded plastic and this is the only way. Like most plastic parts, it is a compromise.

BTW, you can glue the "deployed" flaps to the wing after painting, so you can avoid some potential damage.  

Hth,

Radu