Karl H Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Without being able to see the actual item, it is hard to say. The outline of it looks a bit off but that could be because of photo angles. The entire nose doesn't look right because of the issue with the area from Bulkhead 2 to Bulkhead 3. The "round" vs "flattened" issue if you will. At Bulkhead 3, the top of the fuselage is 3.66 inches out of round on the real aircraft. That is just information for those who are interested and they can decide if it is a fatal flaw for them or not. I don't have a dog in this fight; don't have the kit and won't have one. Not because of flaws, just have no place to put the darn thing ; ) ! Uncarina and Nigels modelling bench 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) Bill, I believe what Karl posted is the Boeing blueprint for the nose glazing, not his own drawing. I think the only Boeing drawing of the nose piece that shows any trace of gun installations holes at all is in another thread that Karl posted in. That gun installation appears to be that like the Belle had but most likely with 30 caliber guns in the nose instead of the 50's. The 50's required a little more bracing being "slightly" heavier. I may be incorrect on that part so I'll let Karl respond to that. I've seen the Belle movie (not the Hollywood remake) and IIRC, there was indeed bracing between the sockets that held the 50's in the nose. Edited March 10, 2016 by Juggernut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) The original Belle nose had three ball socket mounts for 30 caliber guns. The gun was meant to be moved from socket to socket as needed. Found to be impractical to say the least. So that nose was modified in a variety of ways. One 50 and one 30, a single 50 on one side or the other, or, rarely, two 50's. By the way, the nose piece that is at the AFM with the Belle is not the original or even correct. They are going to have (or maybe already have by now) a correct one made. And yes the drawing is from the Boeing engineering drawings. Any added 50's would require additional bracing. Factory setup: Belle with one gun: "Delta Rebel" with a 50 and a 30: Here is an interior view of a single 50 and its bracing: These are just SOME of the ways they modified the nose armament. We could almost write a book on this stuff ; ) ! I have posted some more of this information on the thread about B-17 details. Edited March 10, 2016 by Karl H Brad-M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 As for the nose shape, here is a chart from the Boeing centerline drawing that shows the ordinates for the nose followed by a drawing that shows the lower section of Bulkhead 1 and Stations 1A and 1B. IF someone wanted to correct the nose, it would have to be lowered a scale 3.66 inches. If one were to do that, a new windscreen would need to be made as well as a new instrument panel. It would be a major project. Again, Boeing drawings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 And guys, I am not here to beat up on HK. I just want to provide real information which can be used as you see fit. Uncarina, scvrobeson and Brad-M 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Nose flattened almost 1/8" (0.115) in 1/32 scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-M Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Wasn't Belle's face looking at you and not away from you, or was there a repaint at some point? Brad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 And guys, I am not here to beat up on HK. I just want to provide real information which can be used as you see fit. Karl, I think everyone is grateful (I know I am) for your input with drawings and the other information you have. I'll even venture to say that nobody will think you're bashing the HK kit in any way. I know I don't think that at all. Damned I'd like a set of Boeing B-17 blueprints (and those of the United Airlines Mod Center drawings). Unfortunately, I've got more wishes than money. I know a lot about the old girl but I fall a distant second (or even 3rd) to what you have/know. Brad-M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Thank you for that. I was told by someone on another forum that the information was not relevant as HE could not see it... : ) I believe he was involved with the development of the kit and was not about to let facts interfere with his perceptions. Brad M, the "Memphis Belle" nose art was always as seen, you never saw her face. The art was mirrored on the opposite side. On one side the swimsuit was red, on the other blue. And there are a lot of versions as to how that came about, take your pick LOL ! Uncarina, scvrobeson and Brad-M 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill M. Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Karl, Interesting about the real Memphis Belle's nosepiece in Dayton. The one photo I took of the Belle's nosepiece that Kevin posted for me earlier in this thread is the only one I took. I wish I had taken some more from different angles. If they are having a new correct nosepiece made, I kinda wonder if the one I photographed might be a new correct one? When I visited the Belle and the Swoose, they made a point of saying they were using the original Boeing drawings to make sure the restorations were done right. Anyway, thanks for your info and pictures of the Belle- style mount. Hopefully, HK will see all of this. Do you have similar information on the more common braced single .50 mount nosepiece? Bill M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-M Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) Ok, Thanks, I have a pic of the Belle which shows a 2 gun nose config, when would that have been? If HK wants to depict her as the box art scheme, by looking at the nose glazing,will it be with only the single gun I wonder? I also want to thanks you Karl for all this info. I don't think you are bashing them at all. I wonder who "HE" is? Brad http://media.defense.gov/2006/Jun/01/2000554780/-1/-1/0/060517-F-1234S-021.JPG Edited March 11, 2016 by Brad-M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmayhew Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Good thread guys If I can figure out the space / storage issues, I will definitely get one of these kits However, despite that, I would still like to know about any inaccuracies (small or large), just for my reference if nothing else. So thanks to all who have contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) The "Memphis Belle" could be a study all its own. There are photos with one fifty on the right: One fifty on the left: And two fifties: I think, but cannot prove, they set the airplane up for the dual guns and then found it impractical in use. Then for the Bond tour and the publicity photos in England, they put both guns in to impress the folks back home with the firepower. The only other airplane I have found with that nose gun arrangement was "Connecticut Yankee", another 91st BG aircraft which was flown by Jim Verinis, the Belles copilot. There could very well be others but that setup does not appear to be common. And here is a photo of the Belle, early on. Note that the fifties and the supports for them have not yet been installed. Also of note are the wheel covers. Not the same as the ones that appear later in her career: Edited March 11, 2016 by Karl H Brad-M and brahman104 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) Bill M, if the photo of the Belle nose you are talking about is back a page or two, that is not the correct nose. You can see in the photos I just posted that the nose had a number of reinforcing strips, one on either side of the bombsight window, one running from side to side just above the window, and one running in the upper center. These are not present on the one on the table in the photo I am thinking of. Edited March 11, 2016 by Karl H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaninaustria Posted March 11, 2016 Share Posted March 11, 2016 Building the Memphis Belle is looking to be a fine idea!! Brad-M 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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