blackbetty Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 you are not the problem, i come here because of people like you. you have (to my knowledge) only offered constructive criticism. i dont come here to just get a pat on the back and a "nice model" coment (even if i like pats on the back ), i come here to improve my mediochre skills and to make models i enjoy more mozart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunfighter366 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 THANK YOU RON! I for one have not liked all the negativity about new kits. I didn't post anything here because I haven't been on this sight for that long. I'm fairly new here so was waiting to see if one of the older members would say something. That being said I love all the new kits coming out. I for one don't go looking for something wrong with a new kit first thing as it seems some do. Let' s not try to run off the new manufactures as fast as we can. So they have a few flaws !! When's the last time you had a 1/32 scale Kingfisher, B-25, B-17, F-105, F-100 ? I for one love them flaws and all. Now if you have to complain about something being wrong with a kit, I have the one issue no one has ever said anything about being it old or new. What about the fact that the skin of the aircraft is 6 to 8 scale inch's thick on all kits. Talk about a flaw! Come on guys it's a model if you don't like it don't buy it, go carve yourself one out of wood. Gunfighter, happy modeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveoh Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Re. Lightnings Dave - I don't think I've ever slated them - although it's probably my threads on these that are taken as the 'slatings' - and I agree that most people would be hard pushed to notice. And I've had some very barbed comments aimed at me at shows where I've had parts on display. It seems that whatever side of some imaginary - and false - side of the fence you are perceived to sit - you'll cop some flack!! But for *me* I want to be able to improve on what's there! I model for me and the Lightning is one of my favourite aeroplanes... At no time have I ever been overly negative, or told others' what they should do with their models. I always aim to be constructive and illustrate any points I make. Improving basic shapes is part of what makes this hobby fun - for *me*! EDIT - and I will never comment on the accuracy of someone's model unless I'm specifically asked - and feel qualified to comment - which most of the time I'm not! Perhaps modellers like me are part of the problem and should refrain from commenting on kits in the future if it puts people off so much... Iain Hi Iain I hope you don't think I was taking a pop at you. Goodness me that wasn't my intention. I love the work you are doing to eradicate the flaws in the Trumpeter kit. I for one are looking forward to its release. Dave wunwinglow and Iain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Two thoughts... Constructive, thought through, valid, objective, helpful, fair criticism - Good Histrionics/Melodrama/Personal Attacks/Hyperbole/Profanity - Very Bad Form All IMHO of course Iain It's interesting on LSP how this applies to the extreme when anyone dares mention that any new kit is anything but terrific. Yet it doesn't apply to all the posters who feel the need to condemn the person who points out a flaw in a kit and/or tell everyone how morally superior they are because they don't care if a kit has errors or not, as well as make up statements like people are bashing the kit, or that it is unbuidable when that is not at all true. This was seen clearly illustrated in the last HK Mossie thread where the OP asked if there were any major issues with the kit and we had 95 replys with the aforementioned and none with actual answers to the OP question. And why the the standard for critique so high (as mentioned by one moderator - "show me like I'm a 5 year old") when there is absolutely no standard for making the aforementioned snide remarks about/towards those who are interested in a kits flaws, or flat out making up that someone is bashing a kit or saying it is unbuildable, etc.? Are we not all adults who can decide for ourselves if a) the flaw actually exists; or it matters enough to care or fix? Let's take the new Kingfisher as an example. Someone posted that the wings were spot-welded and not riveted. Great. So, as a thinking adult, I can go and check any references I might have and/or look at pics of the real thing to see what the surface of the wing actually looks like and how that compares to the kit. If I think it looks significantly different and too much work for me, then I can pass on the kit, or if I think it looks pretty close, or I don't mind doing the work I can get it and perhaps build it someday. In the end, this is an individual hobby and each individual decides what is best for them. No way is more right or wrong than any other, except here on LSP where it is only right to be happy about any new kit. Unfortunately, there are very few balanced active posters here anymore since it has become a crime to even mention that a kit might have a flaw. Gone are the days when one could hope to come to LSP and hope to get a good overview on the pros & cons of any new kit. But, since it seems even the moderating group is biased against any kit critique at all, then I guess that is the way the majority here want it. Doug Starfighter, Jeff T, Kagemusha and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Apologies Dave - just spent a lot of today on Lightning stuff - I'm tired and over-sensitive! Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Hi Doug, I really don't think the Mods have a problem with *constructive* critiqueing - it's the hyperboly and toys thrown out of prams that needs curbing at times. I, for one, hope that we continue to see contributions in the form of 'tweak lists' et al., for members to read if they choose - and ignore if they choose. I remember back to when Matt and I first started seeing some areas for improvement with the Revell He 219 - we were actually thinking twice about posting any of our findings because we thought something would kick off. Surely that's not healthy? But that thread turned into a very positive group exercise where a wide number of members input their observations/evidence and, I'd like to think, we ended up with a balanced and positive build and critique of the kit. Despite all the work that went in - I *still* recommend the Revell kit as a good'un - and terrific value. And I learned a huge amount about the He219 in the process - which is one of the things I love most about the hobby! There seem to be extreme views from a minority on *both* sides of the 'it's a kit - just build it' and 'I want it as accurate as possible' tribes. Please stop knocking each other - this is just a circuitus conversation that we see time and time again and never ends up going well. We're all different - we all approach the hobby differently - what we need is fewer extremes... Oh - and I still say we've never had it so good. I get excited about every new release - and if something is spotted - well - that's all part of the fun - but we have a canvas to work on that we didn't have before!!!! But please stop knocking each other because we may approach the hobby from different angles - it's a great hobby, with some great people - and it's meant to be fun... Iain wunwinglow, LSP_Ron, mattlow and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Ron Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Well said Iain Doug, I think perhaps you've drawn a conclusion without fully reading this whole thread. Please read post 31 and 32 Thanks Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOG7777 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 There's a world of difference between: 1) "for those interested in buying/building this particular kit, you may wish to note these particular areas where the kit can be improved or may need to be corrected..." and let it be up to the individual to decide whether he/she considers these issues to be important enough to worry about or not... and 2) "Company X got A, B, and C all wrong on this kit. How can this happen in 2015? Did they even do their research? There are real examples they could have studied! How anyone could have failed to notice this in the development stage is beyond me. This looks nothing like the real thing and is really inexcusable. I'll be saving MY money for something else. But you can build it... if you're not particular with your models." #1 is quite helpful for those who are concerned with accuracy. #2 is very.... off-putting. LSP_K2, Mister J, wunwinglow and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) It isn't the pointing out of flaws that is the problem. It is the invective and spleen-venting that goes with it sometimes that irritates so many people. If a kit has over-emphasised features (nearly said rivets there.... whoops!) it REALLY is not a big deal to fix, or ignore. The fact that the rive.... sorry features, are on a brand new kit of a type never before kitted, designed entirely with US in mind, rather than as a toy, which is likely going to bring joy and happiness unbounded to hundreds of US Na.... sorry, some of us modellers, trumps the fact that the riv..., whatever, are a bit overdone, like a MILLION-FOLD!! Some people just cannot get things in perspective. Some people seem to take these lapses in the designers efforts as some kind of personal affront, that it truly is the end of civilisation, and it is ALL THEIR FAULT!! The way Iain corrected his He 219 was an excellent example of how things SHOULD be done. Here is a kit, I might have spotted some aspects which don't quite look OK to me, here is the research I did, what do you lot think?, lets compare notes, now we seem to have identified what is amiss, lets crack on and develop our modelling skills by having a go at making things look better. QED. I read this kind of thread avidly, even if the subject leaves me cold, because of what I can learn from them. It is what this site does best. Knowing how much effort goes into designing and putting a plastic kit into production, producers it must have cast iron constitutions to take some of the comments about certain products that have been put on the market. To see how kits have improved even in the last few years, let alone the 50-odd years I have been sticking kits together, is absolutely staggering. And if these kits are still not good enough for you, and you are not prepared to put a little bit of effort into correcting things that offend YOUR eye, I really would suggest you take up scratch building. Then you can be entirely in control of what your model looks like. Tim PS I'd recommend scratch building to everyone actually, but that's another story! Tim Edited July 27, 2015 by wunwinglow Lee White, Iain, Ripaman and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 And I don't think any of the Mods would disagree KOG7777! Apart from the "or may need to be corrected" from #1 - where I'd suggest that read something like "or areas you may choose to correct" Unfortunately - there is the elephant in the room. The 'what's seen cannot be unseen' personal pressure some of us create for ourselves. We'd like to build the kit and have fun - but someone pops up with good intentions and points something out (I'm guilty of this) which then spoils my joy as I feel I *have* to 'fix' what's now been seen. They didn't deliberately 'spoil my fun' - but I'm glad they posted (although I probably wish they hadn't!). I think we can sometimes blame others for pressures we subject ourselves to - but then that's all part of the human condition. Not sure if my ramblings strike a chord with anyone else - but I really can see both sides... Iain Derek B and mattlow 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripaman Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Well said Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Ok - let me try this a different way. I understand we have guidelines for how to critique a kit. But, I think it is unrealistic to expect anyone who wants to make any critique of a kit to have to build said kit and show how to correct it. While that is great when it happens (like Iain's He219 and Dereks Spitfire for example), but that takes a significant amount of time and effort that everyone doesn't have. If someone has knowledge of something from their own personal experience, then they should feel free to post it. It should be up to each individual reading the critique to decide if it is correct, and most importantly, if it matters to them. That being said, where are the guidlines for the other side of the coin? Where are the guidelines for responding to kit critique? Something like these to get started: 1) no, the mfg is not going to stop making kits because someone points out a flaw, actually they might improve on their next release because of the critique 2) no, we don't need to be grateful some mfg produced a kit of X. It's a business decision and transaction, not personal. 3) you are not morally superior because you think the kit looks fine the way it is 4) just because you like fixing flaws doesn't mean everyone else does. 5) if someone points out a flaw, and you don't agree with them or don't believe them, nicely ask them for further proof. 6) this is an individual hobby, and however anyone chooses to enjoy the hobby is correct, even if it is not the way you do. Moderating here, and the tone of the site, has become heavily biased to those who don't like kit critique. This is a fact. Again, check this thread for a classic example. Where is the moderating to remove the 90+ useless posts of people complaining (even making up facts with no support (like saying everyone is bashing the kit, putting it down, claiming it is unbuildable, etc) that someone would dare want to know if the kit has any issues? Truly balanced moderating is what is really needed here and that means both sides of the coin, not just critiques, if this site is to return to what it once was where we had where members could have a respectful conversation about the pros and cons of a kit. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Ron Posted July 27, 2015 Author Share Posted July 27, 2015 Doug have you read any of this thread? what the heck does any of this have to do with the moderating here? read the thread, who said anything about not allowing critiques and who is being bias here? Read Kog's post (#54) it pretty much sums up what is being stated. No need for taking stabs at the moderating team here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_K2 Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I have to agree;... the staff, the entire staff, supports constructive debate/conversations about kits 100%. If in fact the staff ever did unanimously decide that only "happy thoughts' were allowed, I'd be the first one to pack my stuff and say goodbye to this site. The staff made a total of 29 comments on the thread you used as an example, the majority of which were aimed at discussing problems, and exploring solutions. (Much of what the aggrieved comment upon, is not specifically what has been said, but how it was said, and with what intent.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Moderating here, and the tone of the site, has become heavily biased to those who don't like kit critique. This is a fact. Sorry - I really beg to differ there Doug. You may, personally, perceive this as a fact - but that is your 'opinion', not a 'fact'. What we're biased against is all the ranting, hyperbole and attacks on individuals and manufacturers and general mud slinging. That is fact. As is supporting valid and balanced criticism where called for. Again, check this thread for a classic example. Where is the moderating to remove the 90+ useless posts of people complaining (even making up facts with no support (like saying everyone is bashing the kit, putting it down, claiming it is unbuildable, etc) that someone would dare want to know if the kit has any issues? That thread was unfortunate in some respects I'll grant you - the OP asked a question which did then attract a number of posts that didn't answer the question/where potentially confrontational - but you didn't see the posts that *were* moderated out! Truly balanced moderating is what is really needed here and that means both sides of the coin, not just critiques, if this site is to return to what it once was where we had where members could have a respectful conversation about the pros and cons of a kit. Doug Truly balanced moderating is difficult - and will *never* please everyone - but I do think the moderating tone applied on these forums is about as balanced as you can get for a global site with many differing flavours of interest/motivation. I think this thread has pretty much served its purpose - I'll merely quote again a post from earlier in the thread: LSP is not the place for the denigration of model kits or the people/companies who made them. We have no issues with members offering a critique of any model kit or product. If members make the effort to ensure their criticism is dispassionate and factual it is far less likely to create complaints. Criticism is a good thing but works best on LSP when it is intended to be constructive and helpful. We are committed to growing a modeling community enthused and inspired by creative solutions. We don't always get things right - we're human - but I can guarantee that we all try to create a fair and even balance for the vast majority of members. Iain LSP_Kevin, LSP_Ron, LSP_Paul and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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