Oh Why,Do we Complain about kits?

[D Bellis]

I am still living in the wood model era in which I grew up.

Welcome to the year 2008. Feel free to join us if you like.

 

I read so many posts where the guys are really bitter and disgusted that the kits have errors.

Quite the twisted lie. The complaint is that new kits with high price tags have obvious errors.

 

D

[Lee White]

What kind of incredible fantasy world do you live in?

 

Stephen, the old coot.

 

 

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

 

Seriously, I think it all boils down to a personal "pain threshhold", that being what the majority of modelers are willing to live with. If I'm scratching a model, I try to do my best, shooting for a "Tamiya", even if I end up with a "Revell", and I can live with this, as my personal threshold may me lower than others. What I'm saying is that while many folks can/do live with a kit's issues, others cannot/will not, and that will translate into a diminished bottom line for the manufacturers. Trumpeter has shown, in the past, a willingness to address issues, such as the infamous Wildcat fuselage debacle. But have they addresed any other issues? I'm thinking P-47 windscreen, Zero fuselage, the entire p-51, etc,. If they won't fix an issue, then enough folks, AKA the average modeler, are buying the kits as-is, and it doesn't make sense for them to fix "what ain't broke". Until the lines on the accuracy-vs.-cost chart cross, we will continue to get some half-baked kits, crammed with useless parts (P-47 turbo ducting, etc.) designed to "add value" to a kit, and therefore justify it's astronomical price. With the cost of petroleum going thru the roof, especially here in the States, with our weak greenback, we will see the cost of these kits go up, as plastic is petroleum product. These companies will be forced to either; live with a lower profit margin, and keep prices the same, or, raise prices, and push the accuracy-vs.cost issue onto the front burner, and pony up the goods and give the buyer something that has real value, or watch 'em go elsewhere. just my $.02, which is getting to be worth less every day-

[DaveJ]

OK, folks. I'll say this once:

 

Stay civil, and stay respectful. This need not be one of those threads that gets shut down, but it's getting really close now.

 

I'm not singling anyone out. If you can't reign it in, I'll shut this down.

[MikeMaben]

Sorry Mike,

 

Please Stephen, no appologies necessary.

I am still living in the wood model era in which I grew up.

 

That's pretty obvious.

 

Back then you got a model and you made it to meet your own personal criteria of accuracy. Or you got the plans and made it from that. Kits cost from 10 cents up to $5. Yes, five bucks was a lot back then.

 

Some of us are not far behind you. I started on Aurora stuff in the late '50s. My first kit was a whopping 79 cents

 

But still there was none of all this carping and carping and carping and whinning for someone else to make the model or parts so one can assemble it into his plastic model.

 

Who were you gonna carp to ? We didn't have soapboxes in the park where I lived.

 

Well, you young whippersnappers go ahead and make all the noise you want. I will read the strings where I learn how to make a better model. I will not waste my time on any more of these whinning and complaining threads.

 

Sure ya will

 

Just kiddin with ya Stephen...no really

[ssculptor]

Some of these posts are linguistically challenging for LSP members for whom English is not their first language. Double spacing with paragraph punctuation would help.

Why bother?

We ourselves do not understand what we are saying when we say it anyway.

Whatever it is we are saying.

That is assuming we have anything to say.

Uh, what was your question again?

[CPNGROATS]

Be nice to Stephen, he is an old coot, afterall...

 

Cheers,

 

ggc

[Silver Dollar]

I could listen to all you guys for hours. I like discussions like this because it shows how each one of us approaches their desired subject. When it comes to the currency, I think all the guys who want their money's worth are spot on. Nowadays, money is getting harder and harder to come by as prices rise. If I'm going to pay $80 to $150 toothpicks on a kit, I want the kit to contain something that a less expensive kit doesn't have be it posable control surfaces, retracting landing gear, metal parts, accuracy, size, better surface detail or whatever. It makes only good business sense not to have to pay more of our hard earned money than something is worth. If the Trumpeter Tbolt costs $150 balloons and I can get exactly the same thing from a $70 balloon Hase kit, why buy the Trumpeter kit in the first place. This part of the discussion always did make perfect sense to me. Nuff said here.

 

I also won't buy a kit if the basic accuracy isn't there at all. By that I mean if I'm supposed to be building a P51D, I shouldn't see a radial engine, twin booms for the tail, a bomb bay door or a two bladed prop. It's not what is advertized and that's really nothing but a rip off. Also, if the parts, plastic or whatever are totally defective or missing, that's also a total waste of my hard earned salt. That's nothing more than a lousy product. I think we can all agree on these conditions.

 

This is where my personal philosophy of model building comes from. This applies to me only as I won't force my standards on someone else. I too am one of those builders like Stephen who started very young in the middle to late 50's when plastic kits were designed for kids to keep us from stealing hubcaps and scaring old ladies. Today's kit offerings are so much better than they were way back then that there doesn't seem to be any comparison to what we had to work with back then. We never complained that a kit had too many rivets or what unless there was something really wrong with it like I described before. As time went on, we learned the difference between just kit building and modeling. We learned the basics like getting rid of mold lines, filling in sink marks and dealing with fit issues. If there was a gap between parts that didn't belong there, that was merely one of the challenges toward building better models. We learned to use stock styrene, body filler and the like. The sharper our skills became, the easier it became to deal with the challenges the kit threw at us until there was no kit that could stop us. That's really what we were looking for i.e. that challenge that when we met it, we and our models stood out from the rest of the pack. It was not so much about building the kit and having a new toy to play with, but about problem solving which wound up becoming a top learning aid for us for our future careers whatever they may have been. Now in the present, I look at a kit and I don't complain about what isn't there or has too much of. I mainly figure out how much modification I need to do and how hard I have to work to get things where I want them to be and not where the kit wants them to be. It's not how much detail already comes with the kit, it's how much I want to put into it. When it stops being fun, I put in less. When I feel better, more goes in. I'm the one in control, not the kit. If others want to follow that philosophy, fine. If not, then fine too. When someone honestly points out the inadequacies of a kit and then TEACHES ME HOW TO OVERCOME THEM, that to me is a great help in determining how much I'll need to work to make the model. It saves me a lot of time and grief and helps me make that decision to buy or not to buy. That is the question. (Shakespeare???) When someone has a constructive gripe, it helps us all in the long run. What really feathers my props is when someone trashes a kit in the name of a quality review. I think that's what a bunch of you have referred to as carping, whining and needless noise. That's not at all helpful. It just shows the reviewer's arrogance, ignorance and childish need for someone to think they're the real experts when they're not. I recently read a review where the reviewer packed up an unbuilt kit and threw it into the garbage. That's just out and out stupid. It doesn't make you a better modeler, just an annoying one to stay away from. It doesn't show me your skills, just your lack of them. If the kit is that bad, then show me constructively what's wrong and I'll listen and make my own decisions. Be fair in your critique and you'll gain much more respect from your fellow modelers. When you can do that, people will begin to trust your opinions rather than ignore them. Thanks for letting me blow this air around the room.

[Silver Dollar]

Whoa, looks like a few replies got in before I finished composing mine. A lot of you guys make some great points. You've all explained your approach to modeling and I think that's great. No one's approach is good or bad, just different. We're all learning from each other with the goal of making models for what ever reason we make them. The rest is all baloney. Does anyone else hear violins or is it just me?

[ssculptor]

Hi Mike,

I wrote:

"But still there was none of all this carping and carping and carping and whinning for someone else to make the model or parts so one can assemble it into his plastic model."

You responded

"Who were you gonna carp to ? We didn't have soapboxes in the park where I lived."

 

Me again - new statements.

We had flying model clubs back then. They kind of specialized in terms of free flight and U-Control flying. The clubs were really great. Eventually, when I was nine I joined the Chicago U-Line Pilots. A mix of children (I was one of the youngest), high school students and adults. Everyone helped each other. The older people saw to the development of the younger members. The main problems were about making the models fly better or be closer to scale or just be built better.

I never heard anyone carping about kits or fuels or engines. Well, we were warned off of the motors that were inferior and told which of the newer engines were the best. As for the wood kits we discussed how to improve them or else make something from scratch.

Frankly, plastics bored me. All you did was build them and put them on a shelf or hang them from the ceiling.

Radio Control was in its infancy back then - nothing readymade at all. You had to build your own radio and escapements and receivers from parts that you bought at the predecessors of todays Radio Shack.

I was in model trains later and found the same kind of comraderie. Again, no carping and complaining. Just building and running trains.

 

I think the best thing for me to do is simply ignore the strings that concentrate on complaining about the models that appear on the market.

I agree that they are necessary when a Trumpeter model kit costs over $150 yet it has as many problems as the old Revellogram kits from the 1960's. At least the Revell kits cost only a few dollars each back then.

 

I really look forward to the upcoming strings when the Revell Ju-88 appears on the market in October.

It will start with guys asking if anyone has built the model yet so they know if they should buy one themselves. No sense of adventure, no concept of taking a chance.

Then they want to see photos of all the sprues, as if they can tell anything from such photos.

Then maybe they will buy the kit.

It is just like what we used to do in the old CULP club. Except here it is done world wide on the internet.

Guys offering suggestions on how to improve the kit. Making suggestions on how to add to the kit.

Then others making add-on kits to sell to the guys who do not scratch build at all.

All in all it works pretty well except for the few guys who scream and holler because the kit is not perfect.

 

Dammitall, no kit is perfect!

 

All kits are compromises and a modeler learns to improve what he purchases.

Other modelers just make it as it is out of the box and have their fun that way. So their models are not as accurate as they could be. So what? They make a model and they enjoy the experience and like what they do. It is their hobby.

The guys who want to make the ultimate model go on and add whatever they need to have their way with the kit.

 

And there will be posts from guys who want to make all sorts of noise because the model company failed again to meet the modelers impossible goals.

 

Such is life.

[Texas]

Hi If I like the kit I buy it and build it and try to correct any errors I find. But most of all I try and have Fun building it. Now that doesn't mean I am always happy with the kits that are being released in today's market. I don't thank we will ever see a perfect kit.

 

Texas

[Lancman]

Wow I last looked at this it was on post 11 and now it's up to 40 What a great thread and I have had to chuckle at a few comments anyway I build my models as it's my escape time from work. wife, kids, tv and so on. If it's not right I might try and fix it but on the whole I just like building models and after watching what some of you guys do here I try it myself with mixed results as at the end of the day my models sit on a shelf in our dining room so very few people get to see them anyway (apart from you lot) . This has to be one of the best topics we have had in a long while and it's great to see how some people are so passionate about the hobby so keep it clean and let it roll on.

 

Graham.

[Bryan]

What the hell, I will weigh in too....

 

I build very few models, simply because I have very limited space to display them. My goal with whatever I build is sort of "quality over quantity", in that I don't really do quick builds, most of mine take me 4-6 months to complete. I want every completed model to be as perfect as my skills allow, as I get great satisfaction out of them as display items in my office.

 

My point is, I don't mind spending a fair amount of money on kits just because I build so few, but kit quality is important to me. Not so much extensive interior detail like Trumpeter does, but accurate outlines and crisply engraved (not overdone) surface details are what I look for. Like many here, I depend on reviews good and bad that come from others on this site. I might build a kit that is tricky to assemble and requires filler and such, but models with overdone rivets or gross inaccuracies I will pass on. If I build a model or two a year, I figure there is no reason to mess with correcting the turkeys..... I would rather use the effort to add subtle details or to do my best on the paint work.

 

For subjects I really like that aren't readily available, I would be willing to buy a lousy kit and make corrections. For example, if a 1/32 Tempest were available I would buy it no matter what the reviews of the kit, and I would do whatever was necessary to correct problems.

 

I won't be on the site complaining about kits though, because I don't really have adequate perspective to critique kits in a meaningful way. They last three kits I built were the MDC Typhoon, Hasegawa P-47, and Fisher Sea Fury. I thought they were all freakin outstanding kits!

 

As some would say, I guess I am just an "assembler". So be it.

[LSP_Kevin]

You won't catch me complaining about kits either, only my ham-fisted attempts to build them. I'll build pretty much anything you whack in front of me if it has wings and a prop (with a few jets thrown in for good measure). I like the challenges and opportunities an old clunker presents, but I also enjoy the easy builds just as much as anyone else. I'm a bit of a rarity in the modelling world, in that I don't really enjoy research that much - I just want to build the model, not read endlessly about the real thing. That's not to say that I don't do any research, but I'm not anal or pedantic about it (ironic given that I'm both of those things in reality).

 

Kev

[Radub]

Complaining is not limited to models only. It is an "affliction" of the recent growth in communication. Look around you, open a newspaper, listen to the radio, watch TV, and I can guarantee that there will be one complaint about something.

There will always be "concerned" citizens ready to "share" their concerns. These guys were always around, but now, instead of speaking in the local pub to 10 people, they got blogs/forums/talk shows reachable by thousands or even millions. Some have valid concerns, others are just displaying plain and simple attention seeking behaviour. The secret is to figure out how to separate the chaff from the wheat.

As for "perfection", one man's treasure is another man's garbage. I like kits that others would not dare touch. That does not make me better or worse than others, it is just what I like - it is my toy and I play with it the way I like.

Radu

[LSP_Matt]

Some folks are merely interpreted as complaining because they have spotted errors in a given kit, and are sharing that information with other modelers. I happen to appreciate this information because it lets me decide if a kit is actually worth buying. The higher the MSRP, the less the flaws are acceptable .

 

The problem starts when these contented people don't want to know what's wrong with the kits that they dumped rediculous cash on, and begin complaining that everyone that doesn't agree with their uninformed happiness is a "complainer" or "riven counter".

Complain :To express negative feelings, especially of dissatisfaction

Whinge : To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

 

Spotting errors ,listing them for all modellers to make better informed choices about what they want to buy and build is a great thing. Its not fair nor reasonable for anyone to be harried for being factual and intelligently analytical about the various 'flaws' that might be identified in a kit. LSP tends to be where can you learn about inherent kit issues but see someone building one and redressing identified problems. Critical and yet constructive...positive.

 

Threads identifying kit 'flaws' work best when this is done in a matter of a fact way. The moment someone starts to take it upon themselves to educate the ignorant masses, to extrapolates the 'flaws' into broad assumptions about company policies or cultural practices is when the agro and complaints begin. Often what was previously 'complaining' becomes simply whinging. Its something members have said they do not like.

 

 

Some of these posts are linguistically challenging for LSP members for whom English is not their first language.

Quite franky at times for English speakers as well.