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D.B. Andrus

Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

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For those interested here is an extract from the document cited by Mr. Crandall,  documenting the weight of the Fw 190 A-8. 

 

45794330675_f4ca154eb6_h.jpg

 

The entry for paint (Farbanstrich) is highlighted with a listed weight of 2.0 kilograms or 4.4 pounds

 

The complete document can be found here.

Edited by RBrown

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RLM 76 evolved from a light turquoise blue gray to the extremely pale shade known as Weissblau.  The early version of RLM 76 used cobalt blue pigment in its composition.  Subsequently, an inferior ultramarine pigment known as Blau 34904 was substituted, resulting in the Weissblau formulation.

 

 Weissblau was satisfactory when used in the offensive camouflage scheme designed to conceal the aircraft in the air.   However, Weissblau would severely compromise a defensive scheme designed to conceal the aircraft on the ground.

 

In the later stages of the war we find evidence, in the form photographs and relics, for the employment of pastel green and tan shades in place of Weissblau.  Perhaps the pastel shades were a response to the unsuitability of Weissblau in the then current tactical situation. The change in hue would not necessitate a change in nomenclature. Remember RLM 65, 78, 79 all experienced significant color changes, as a result of tactical experience, during their brief existence.

Edited by RBrown

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This stuff is fascinating...  You guys have really done the work haven't you?  I haven't been into Luftwaffe stuff a lot in these past 8 or 10 years but I still have a few 109's in the stash and at least one of them is a later war aircraft.  Now, where did I put that notebook?  Oh nevermind, I'll just copy/paste the content into a Word document I can print and file... LOL :lol:

 

The last time I was involved in color of later war Luftwaffe aircraft, I was building the Fw190D-9, Blue 12 from 6/JG2 using that pastel green color....  I also remember using RLM 76 on the tops of the wings as a camouflage color based on a color photograph I saw in the Monogram Publishing book on the 190D.  Peeps have said it's supposed to be RLM 77 but I'll be damned if my eyes didn't see (and still do, I just looked at the photo) RLM 76.  I may be totally wrong and if so, that's fine but I calls em as I sees em ^_^.  I also remember having a very brief discussion with Jerry about the underside RLM75? color and what area it covered based on the very vague shots of the underside of that aircraft (at least the ones I knew of at that time).  I deviated from what was on the EagleCals sheet a little in that respect but if nobody knew the exact aircraft I was talking about, they'd not know one way or the other. 

 

Now, back to my seat and I'll thank my neighbor for holding my popcorn while I spoke....:popcorn:

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This an informative thread, so while there may not be agreement regarding technical points, let's avoid snarky comments which add nothing. No one is such an expert that they cannot learn more.

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2 hours ago, RBrown said:

RLM 76 evolved from a light turquoise blue gray to the extremely pale shade known as Weissblau.  The early version of RLM 76 used cobalt blue pigment in its composition.  Subsequently, an inferior ultramarine pigment known as Blau 34904 was substituted, resulting in the Weissblau formulation.

 

 Weissblau was satisfactory when used in the offensive camouflage scheme designed to conceal the aircraft in the air.   However, Weissblau would severely compromise a defensive scheme designed to conceal the aircraft on the ground.

 

In the later stages of the war we find evidence, in the form photographs and relics, for the employment of pastel green and tan shades in place of Weissblau.  Perhaps the pastel shades were a response to the unsuitability of Weissblau in the then current tactical situation. The change in hue would not necessitate a change in nomenclature. Remember RLM 65, 78, 79 all experienced significant color changes, as a result of tactical experience, during their brief existence.

 

Well, there are a few things pretty established about this color :

 

1) it did not receive a new designation. Whatever it was, it was supplied under an existing color code

2) application examples of this color matches application of RLM76. Whenever the color is found, it's at a place where RLM76 is called for

 

It is therefore pretty convincing to say that this color was known as RLM76 to the supply chain

 

The other question is of course, was the hue intentional. German researchers agree with my analysis that the greenish hue was the unexpected result of a formulation change. When looking at the parts in my possession, it is evident that there is considerable hue variation within that color. Depending on the paint thickness on the part, hue ranges from "normal" RLM76 without any hint of green, greenish 76 and even brownish 76.

 

The next question is, what benefit this hue would have if intentional. The answer is pretty clear : none. A super light green does not really offer better ground concealement, sorry to break some myths here. The germans themselves did not believe in it either because when you have a look at the Me 109K4 camo scheme, it's pretty much darker greens and browns covering the sides and wings of the a/c. That makes more sense.

 

So  far in this thread I have not see any of the really knowledgeable reseachers dispute that this color is a variation of RLM76.

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26 minutes ago, LSP_Mike said:

I  am thinking the color change or shift as it were, may have been due to the thickness of the layer of paint applied.

 

How does that work?  By that logic, the color you see in the can (where the paint is really thick - the thickness of the height of the can) should cause it to appear a totally different color.  Unless it were applied over another color (green) in such a misted, almost-not-there layer, it's going to look like what's in the can.  Don't forget, WWII paints used heavy metal pigments for the most part, and were generally very opaque, especially compared to many modern paints that lack the heavy metal pigments.  You could paint pure white over pure black in those days, and it would look white.  Lead is an amazing thing :)

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33 minutes ago, Vincent/MDC said:

 

So  far in this thread I have not see any of the really knowledgeable reseachers dispute that this color is a variation of RLM76.

 

Just playing devil's advocate here (I have no dog in the fight) - knowing how anal-retentive we Germans are, I find it somewhat hard to believe that they wouldn't have invented a new designation for what was essentially a new color, and just kept calling something that looked radically different "RLM 76".  Not saying it didn't happen, but Germans are nothing if not sticklers for that kind of detail.  You vill follow za rules!

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as i explained earlier, some sort of reaction seems to happen on the outer layer of the painted surface and the reaction may be different on different thicknesses. I'm pretty sure it looked grey blue in the can and even during spraying.

 

you can also see hints of that effect on the australian G6 : what seens to be a poor paint job might be the very same thing i see on my parts

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58 minutes ago, Jennings Heilig said:

 

Just playing devil's advocate here (I have no dog in the fight) - knowing how anal-retentive we Germans are, I find it somewhat hard to believe that they wouldn't have invented a new designation for what was essentially a new color, and just kept calling something that looked radically different "RLM 76".  Not saying it didn't happen, but Germans are nothing if not sticklers for that kind of detail.  You vill follow za rules!

 

that's because it wasn't a new color, just a revised formulation. They did the same with rlm66 by the way: later in the war it got a distinct greenish tint. you see that on Komets and Ta152 and the green comes from the priming agent which might be the very same thing we see on the 76

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Are we not arguing semantics on the light blue vs light greenish-brown? Whether or not it was an unintended color or intended change, it does not change the fact that some late war aircraft painted with the new formulation/paint would have the 'new' color and it would be correct to model them that way. And different factories, tasked with building some sub assemblies. such as wings, could possibly provide different variations of 76 or green depending on when they ran out of the older formulation and how they mixed the paint. Am I not right?

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