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D.B. Andrus

Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

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46 minutes ago, D.B. Andrus said:

Decided to move my discussion in Pastor John's Erla G-10 thread to give him some breathing room.

 

You can copy/paste your comments from there to here if you wish, Damian.

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What intrigues me, among many things, is that it appears to exist  both a true mono colour scheme, and one almost - but - probably - not - after - careful - examination - of - photos. 

(I hope the Germans will dig up some documents on that!) 

My thinking is that both where done at the factory. It simply is no logic to the idea of such big paint jobs being done at unit level. If they wanted extra cover on the ground there where camo netting to use, tree lines to disperse the aircrafts to, and simple overspraying of the blue gray sides with anything at hand. 

Speaking of the later we got remarkably neat paint jobs. 

 

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Here's something to stir the late color pot:

 

11952842_933649606688278_336539129935246

Original.

 

11952842_933649606688278_336539129935246

B&W conversion

 

11952842_933649606688278_336539129935246

Bf 109G-14 WNr. 785 XXX  Wels, May, 1945.

Looks like brown 81/82 to me.

 

Screenshot-2018-09-24-Falcons-Messerschm

Same a/c as above, but earlier time frame?

 

cid_8672FE659B974334B7C1AEAE0BCF61B5Dami

This is an interesting one. Brown 81/82 as well?
 

Cheers,

 

D.B.

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Here's another interesting example:

 

2210563994_091947ce87%202_zpsfdavfrga.jp

 

The Grafenwohr G-10 in B&W

 

65675020427_003496_zps8diluoli.jpg

 

Screenshot of same a/c in high contrast color. Note NMF on outer wing under surface.

 

5155189564_362f6009d4_o_zpsqqbw6mle.jpg

 

Photo lightened substantially showing a patch of brown outboard of the port wing root and the outer l/e, as well as on the starboard l/e near the wingtip. It may may point toward the fuselage being two colors rather than one color overall.

 

Personally, I'm leaning toward 81/70 rather than 82.......take a look at the prop and wing l/e's.

 

Cheers,

 

D.B.

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Here are a few late FW 190A's:

 

KGrHqFHJCUE8fdMzVjLBPJfdFuMf60_3%20edite

 

fw_190_colour%20edited_zpsxeenzagm.jpg

 

a67bb32e969bfb7c0c04a4d2dd125ded--ww-pla

 

fw190A-8%20WNr.%20681497%20edited_zps1y3

 

Fw190A-9%20or%20A-8%20Oberschleben%20May

 

Color_Film_Fw_190_A-8WNr739xxx_May_1945_

 

As you can see the schemes run the gamut of combinations. Personally, I don't use color photos to determine an exact shade, rather to tell if the colors tend toward a green, brown or grey. Yet this method can also be fraught with chances of misinterpretation. In the end you roll the dice and take your chances. Love this subject!

 

Cheers,

 

D.B.

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Slightly OT from 81/82, but still within the colour debate, those first 2 FW190 shots beautifully illustrate the distinction between late war 76 (almost chalky white by this time) on the cowl underside and oil cooler ring, compared with the un-numbered beige colour used underneath the wings. I have read a description of this shade as 'concrete' - which seems pretty accurate to me! But a world away from 76 in its usual form...

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58 minutes ago, Vincent/MDC said:

By the way, about the beige color or so called RLM84 : I have several Fw190 D9 parts wih this color. I took a couple of them to try to establish the origin of that color. In both cases, i found, pigment wise, a normal RLM76 but the greenish tint came from what appeared to be pigment carrier oozing on top of the pigmented layer in this greenish hue.

 

With model, i was able to reproduce the exact same effect by painting the part in RLM76 first then overspraying a layer of diluted tamiya clear green. Therefore i'm with Mr Ullman on that one : the so called RLM84 is plain normal RLM76 where the binding agent has turned green and oozed over the pigments. Why is that is another question but what is clear is that the painters were applying paint labelled RLM76 at that time

 

So then the question becomes, when did that happen?  Did the RLM 76 look greenish immediately upon application, or was that phenomenon only apparent 70 years after the paint was applied?  

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2 hours ago, Vincent/MDC said:

By the way, about the beige color or so called RLM84 : I have several Fw190 D9 parts wih this color. I took a couple of them to try to establish the origin of that color. In both cases, i found, pigment wise, a normal RLM76 but the greenish tint came from what appeared to be pigment carrier oozing on top of the pigmented layer in this greenish hue.

 

With model, i was able to reproduce the exact same effect by painting the part in RLM76 first then overspraying a layer of diluted tamiya clear green. Therefore i'm with Mr Ullman on that one : the so called RLM84 is plain normal RLM76 where the binding agent has turned green and oozed over the pigments. Why is that is another question but what is clear is that the painters were applying paint labelled RLM76 at that time

 

Mindful of thread hijacking here, but...

 

With the greatest of respect to Vincent I feel the issue around lower surface colours I highlighted in this case is more complex than just a bad mix of pigment and binder. I would offer a number of points to support this proposition

  • Look again at the 2 FW190s above. The underwing paint isn't the greenish 'RLM 84' but a beige/concrete colour that is quite different from either 76 or the so-called 84
  • Being applied right next to 'conventional RLM76' in the same print frame means that we can discount any photographic shift or print degeneration as the cause
  • The old 'Monogram Painting Guide' offered a number of 76 variants that are generally still accepted within Luftwaffe camo debates as valid when compared to real aircraft parts (as I acknowledge that Vincent has done), so the situation is more complicated than poor binder in some 76 paint
  • So we are off to the races with multiple shades of undersurface paint on late war airframes - some bluish, some greenish and some beigeish. (New word there :blink:)
  • RLM 76 itself varies significantly from a light blue to chalky almost white
  • Some airframes are painted in three or more different underside colours (the RAAF Bf109G for one example), with shades on the same airframe including white/blue, concrete and the 'sky' lookalike widely referred to as 'RLM84' (although I use that term reluctantly as it has no formal meaning backed by RLM documents, but rather is a label now in widespread use). The RAAF airframe is accepted as a rebuilt airframe (that doesn't necessarily negate my point about 3 different colours), but for an everyday airframe FW190D-9 Blue 12 is another example with varied undersurface colours

Finally, I fully accept Vincent's (and Michael Ullman's) proposition that some examples of late war greenish undersurface paint could be as a result of solvent and pigment changes within RLM76. I feel however that this theory doesn't easily account for all the observed colour variations from period evidence and the points I have presented above.

 

Phew!

 

Padraic

 

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