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D.B. Andrus

Late War RLM usage of 81/82, etc.

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I'm actually more interested in finding specifics on the supposed use of RLM77 primer (a very light grey) as a primary camouflage color on some very late-war German aircraft.  I've seen some pretty convincing pics and color profiles by people that seem to have a good handle on this.  Makes for a pretty interesting scheme.  It does seem to contradict the German's use of greens to conceal the aircraft while it's on the ground.  

 

To confuse the issue further, for all I know the supposed RLM77 could possible just be another off-spec variation of RLM76?

 

Bf_109k4_StabIII_JG53_cr.jpg

 

The profile above was taken from a very interesting reference article over on HS.   If anyone thinks I should not have reposted this, just let me know and I'll take it down.  

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One of the landing gear legs on the D-9"Black 8" that was pulled out of Lake Schwerin in Germany was painted with a light gray FS 26373 with doesn't quite match up with published chips of RLM 77. We were able to examine it close up not long after it came out of the water. The other leg was standard RLM 02. Warnecke and Böhm and others had no explanation for this color. One comment was 77 was only intended as a markings color as was not manufactured in quantity. Who knows?. The big problem is They were ordered to destroy documents regarding color so we have almost nothing on late war colors which leaves with a lot of speculation. One thing for sure is this late light green color is not light blue. There is a color film that shows D-13 engine cowlings on railway cars that are painting with RLM 75, RLM 76 and light green together. However there is some speculation that light green is the final version of RLM 76. But W and B says no that the RLM did not allow more than one color to have the same designation, some variation yes, but not a different color. In other words RLM 76 light blue could not be called light green. Sadly we have no known documentation either way. Mark Proulx has seen our collection and has some samples.

    D.B. Andrus, We are not the publishers of this book in the works and it's probably a long ways off.

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7 hours ago, Jennings Heilig said:

 

           - knowing how anal-retentive we Germans are,

 

        Wait ,  let me write that down ...

 

   3kW7acU.gif

 

 

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What ever happened to the Lake Schwerin Dora 9?   I recall reading the wings were beyond economical repair but I thought Flug-Werk provided a set of wings before they went under?   It’s been decades since that Dora was recovered and or since we heard anything happening to the airframe.

 

Troy 

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9 hours ago, MikeMaben said:

 

        Wait ,  let me write that down ...

 

 

Was that news to you Mike? :)  I stood at an intersection in Frankfurt and watched Germans stand there until the sign said "walk" despite the fact that there wasn't a car visible anywhere.  You vill follow za rules!!!

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Here are two good samples of the colors in question . The RLM 76 piece is part of a wooden panel from a Bf 109 K-4  W.Nr. 330152  lost on 27 November 1944. The upper colors were 74/75. The oval panel was originally painted RLM 76 then was over  painted with light green. It is from an Fw 190 A-8 JG 6 W.Nr.171681 found at Euedenbach airfield near Remagen. This green is the same color that is on NASM's He 219. Interesting also this green was the undersurface color found on the He 111s of KG 55 at Bad  Wörishofen, Germany after the war. Our friend who lived there had many parts that he retrieved in 1946. As you can see these two colors are not related.

          Cheers, Jerry

A-8 panel smallest.jpg

k-4 panel smallest.jpg

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pictures are too small to be of any use and i don't see any green of them

Edited by Vincent/MDC

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Interesting... it's good to see some of the very latest thinking/evidence here on LSP...

 

Gazzas, as far as I know, Regensburg sent a/c out in RLM 76 because their paint shop got a visit from the USAAF (mentioned in Squadron 109G walkaround), not a shortage of paint - subtly different scenario.. :) I assume the overall RLM 76 (if correct shade) backs up Vincent's note on 76 being a colour and a primer. I recall colour photos (prob from Signal magazine) showing mostly complete fuselages in a light blue overall. There are also images of WNF DIANA 109G-10 fuselages in overall RLM 76 before final assembly.

 

I had forgotten about the train load of 190D -11/13 cowls... Here is a still. It is clear that both a 'classic' RLM76 is visible as well as what appears to be the pale beige type colour used as a disruptive camo colour on the upper surface. I will refrain from drawing any conclusions from the image, BUT the fact this is a train load of the things, clearly not yet fitted means that Junkers' factory was using both hues (I've avoided saying colours) simultaneously. The cowls were part of the engine and produced and painted by the engine manufacturer (the 'power egg'). It isn't even likely that the cowls are 'old stock' with a repaint/overpaint as the D-11/13 cowl was different and a new product - so most likely that those two shades were applied one after the other in the same painting session...

 

What does that say?

 

9647005256_b201b2309a_o.jpg

 

Also I'd just say that Jerry's and Vincent's observations are not necessarily mutually exclusive - doesn't have to be either/or..

 

Matt

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are talking about the greenish color or the tan one ? because to me they could be different. We must also take into account the film and how it captures colors. The pictures i posted were taken under a high quality true day light light source and as you can see, it's really greenish

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My understanding would be that the main colours of interest are the RLM 76 ('classic') on the lower part of the cowl and that 'tan' one on the forward cowl...

 

The main part of the cowl seems to be in RLM75 (with the purplish hue) and a green colour.  Absolutely agree about the film and how it may affect colour reproduction. That said, the tan colour on the cowl looks very similar to the upper photograph in Jerry's post, which is interesting.

 

Personally, I'm not here to 'prove' anything, merely adding some thoughts... the variations in colours/hues observed would indicate to me that there are likely to be a number of factors at play. In terms of a new colour, it would only take one production facility to decide that a certain mix had to be used (for whatever reason) and we have a new colour, not officially sanctioned or described but a new colour nonetheless.

 

Matt

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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 9:28 PM, Vincent/MDC said:

 

Well, there are a few things pretty established about this color :

 

1) it did not receive a new designation. Whatever it was, it was supplied under an existing color code

2) application examples of this color matches application of RLM76. Whenever the color is found, it's at a place where RLM76 is called for

 

It is therefore pretty convincing to say that this color was known as RLM76 to the supply chain

 

The other question is of course, was the hue intentional. German researchers agree with my analysis that the greenish hue was the unexpected result of a formulation change. When looking at the parts in my possession, it is evident that there is considerable hue variation within that color. Depending on the paint thickness on the part, hue ranges from "normal" RLM76 without any hint of green, greenish 76 and even brownish 76.

 

The next question is, what benefit this hue would have if intentional. The answer is pretty clear : none. A super light green does not really offer better ground concealement, sorry to break some myths here. The germans themselves did not believe in it either because when you have a look at the Me 109K4 camo scheme, it's pretty much darker greens and browns covering the sides and wings of the a/c. That makes more sense.

 

So  far in this thread I have not see any of the really knowledgeable reseachers dispute that this color is a variation of RLM76.

 

I have to say Vincent that, intentionally or not, this post of yours reads rather conceitedly, especially your concluding sentence where your mentioning 'really knowledgeable researchers' smacks somewhat of elitism.

 

I thought I had put forward a balanced argument on p1 when I highlighted the blue/white, green and concrete colours used on the undersides of the FW190s in the pictures provided there. I provided a reasoned justification for my opinion why these were distinct hues. Other posters (some very well known in this field) have since contributed and developed mine and their ideas with supporting evidence. I also acknowledged your position as potentially valid, but not, in my view, comprehensive enough to form a complete justification for the widespread existence of 3 distinct underside colours (in a variety of hues). My position has not changed, but at no point did I make a value judgement about the credibility of your suggestions. I thought all participants here were involved in a thoughtful and measured discussion?

 

I may not be in print on this subject, but I do know what I'm talking about. Your words above are poorly chosen.

 

Padraic

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