Questions about the FW 190 F-8

[Furie]

Thank you Martinnfb for your very interesting messages.
You painted the upper surfaces of the wings 76/81, right? With the 76 replacing the 75?
It doesn't correspond to any of the RLM directives, but indeed, why not, especially as the shades seem very contrasting...
It would seem (if the photo of these wrecks is indeed the white 70) that the horizontal stab is painted 75/81.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Furie

[pvanroy]

Wing bulges

First, the outer wing bulges are NOT associated with the installation of MG 151/20 cannons: these guns fit well within the contour of the wing. The bulges are only required when the standard 20 mm MG 151/20 guns are replaced with the heavier 30 mm MK 108 cannon (i.e., on the R2, R8 and R12 Sturm modifications).

 

German aircraft producers and their subcontractors were allowed to modify parts to accommodate local production techniques and practices, and to make improvements, on condition that the modified parts 1) met the original minimum standards; and 2) they were directly interchangeable with similar parts from other manufacturers. Standardizing on the wing with MK 108 bulges regardless of whether these guns were installed made sense for concerns producing the MK 108-armed versions, and posed no issues with regard to performance: the bulges are in a low-pressure zone on top of the wings, so practically, they impose no drag penalty.

 

Production of MK 108-armed FW 190s was undertaken by Fieseler Kassel, Ago Oschersleben and Norddeutsche Dornier Werke (NDW) Wismar. The two producers of the F-8 and F-9 on the other hand were Arado Warnemünde (2400+ F-8 between February 1944 and March 1945, 310 F-9 between December 1944 and April 1945) and NDW Wismar (1300+ F-8 between March 1944 and December 1944, 110 F-9 between March - April 1945). While Arado Warnemünde did not produce any MK 108-armed versions, NDW Wismar also produced the A-8/R8 (in addition to the regular A-8 and F-8). Production of the A-8/R8 at NDW took place between March 1944 and January 1945, and hence overlapped completely with the production of the F-8 at this plant (March 1944 - December 1944). So, for NDW, it made total sense to standardize on the wing with the cannon bulge, and it seems likely that most if not all F-8 (and regular A-8) built by NDW had the cannon bulge on the outer wing, even if it did not have any practical function on this variant.

 

Two things here need to be taken into consideration. Production plants often also served as sub-contractors for other plants, or sold excess production to other producers. I don't know if it was the case, but it is possible that NDW could have provided wings to other manufacturers building the Fw 190 A and F - in this respect, it is important to note that NDW Wismar and Arado Warnemünde were particularly closely linked, NDW having originally started as a subcontractor of Arado. So, NDW wings with cannon bulges may have ended up that way on aircraft from other production plants. Another thing to consider is that the Germans from the very beginning were very adept at recycling and rebuilding aircraft. This way, it is also possible that NDW wings with cannon bulges ended up mated to a fuselage produced by another manufacturer. NDW seems to have produced enough wings to meet its own production needs, so it is unlikely that any NDW-produced aircraft came off the production line with wings from another manufacturer; notwithstanding, there's one documented example of an NDW-produced aircraft with Arado wings, but this may have been the result of a re-build after having sustained damage.

 

So, bottom line: if you're doing an F-8, try to find out the W.Nr. If it's an NDW-built aircraft, you can be pretty sure if it will have the outer cannon bulges. However, whenever you can, it's always just best to check with photographs. In your case, I do think you can be pretty confident that Black 6 / White 70 had the outer bulges.

 

Upper wing color

In fact, 76 is absolutely possible. The use of 76 and 77 on the upper wings of Fw 190 aircraft is quite well documented (see e.g. also Fw 190 D aircraft built by Mimetall and Roland), and there are quite a few photos of NDW-built A and F aircraft that show a very light color on the wings, which most likely is 76, or possibly the slightly darker 77.

 

Rudder color

If the aircraft's tactical markings are painted according to the final regulations for IV. Luftflotte markings issued on 7 March 1945, it should have a yellow rudder. This final order stipulated that:

 

- All aircraft used in daylight combat were to have a 50 cm wide yellow band around the cowling, and a yellow rudder

- Older ID markings (the yellow V on the underside of the left wing, and the yellow band around the rear fuselage) were to be removed.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by pvanroy
More typos...

[Furie]

1 hour ago, pvanroy said:

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

@pvanroy: Pvanroy: oh yes, that's very helpful and all very interesting.

 

So the yellow stripe on the engine cowl and the yellow rudder do imply the disappearance of the yellow chevron under the left wing.

 

Concerning RLM 77, it's not a very easy shade to identify in the RLM color charts.

 

As for the wing bulges, I've just realized that many FW 190 A-8s have neither MK 108s nor MG 151s on the outside of the wing (a bit like F-8s).
Here's a FW 190 A-8 from the Stab I.JG301:

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Furie

[pvanroy]

In principle, yes, adherence to the last IV. Luftflotte guideline on tactical markings includes the suppression of the rear fuselage band and V under the left wing. However, the order did provide for permissible delays in implementing the order in view of weather (and, no doubt, battlefield realities). So, surely, there were aircraft with a mix of markings.

 

RLM 77 is a very enigmatic color. It's inclusion in the 7X range clearly indicates it was intended as a camouflage color. However, the only times it is mentioned in formal documents is as a color for night fighter codes, and a topside camouflage for high-altitude reconnaissance planes. However, it was quite widely used on upper surfaces of day fighters, as both shown by wartime color photographs, and wreck sites. A very interesting discussion of the topic can be found here:

 

Luftwaffe Camouflage Commentary 1 – RLM 77 - Air War Publications

 

And some pilots had the outer wing guns on the Fw 190 A aircraft removed to improve roll rate. So yes, it's not that unusual to find Fw 190 As with only the inner guns installed (in fact very common with the A-5 in particular, as the outer MG FF/M cannons by that point were of little practical use, and their ballistics were quite different from both the inner MG 151s and cowl MG 17s).

[LSP_K2]

2 hours ago, pvanroy said:

RLM 77 is a very enigmatic color. It's inclusion in the 7X range clearly indicates it was intended as a camouflage color. However, the only times it is mentioned in formal documents is as a color for night fighter codes, and a topside camouflage for high-altitude reconnaissance planes. However, it was quite widely used on upper surfaces of day fighters, as both shown by wartime color photographs, and wreck sites. A very interesting discussion of the topic can be found here:

 

Luftwaffe Camouflage Commentary 1 – RLM 77 - Air War Publications

 

I reviewed the same book here on LSP a few years back. Very interesting bit of reference it is.

[Furie]

@Pvanroy + @LSP_K2 : 

 

 

Thank you for your messages and links.

After some research, here is what I found:

 

RLM 77 corresponds on FS 595b to 36492.
It looks like RLM 76, a little darker and without the bluish tint.
The closest Gunze shades are H51 Light Gull Gray and H338 Light Gray .
MRP also has a shade, but I don't know if it matches: MRP-A053 RLM 77 (but it no longer seems to exist at MRP).

 

Instinctively, I prefer the H51.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Furie

[denders]

I used SMS Lichtgrau RLM63 on the Bf108 project. It might be close. (Assuming that lacquer is okay.)

 

 

 

[LSP_Ray]

As there seemed to be a faint 'V' under the wing in that one photo above, I wonder if you are seeing fresh paint over faded paint, not yellow.

[Furie]

2 hours ago, LSP_Ray said:

As there seemed to be a faint 'V' under the wing in that one photo above, I wonder if you are seeing fresh paint over faded paint, not yellow.

 

You mean that picture?

 

 

I don’t see a "V" under the wing.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Furie

[LSP_Ray]

On 9/4/2023 at 2:52 PM, Furie said:

 

 

Was talking about this pic, but it looks like it is not White 70, so I guess it doesn't matter. 

[Furie]

Forgive me, I misunderstood what you meant.
As for the plane you referred to, I wrote "maybe" because in the end I could only make out a shadow that was a little too sharp to be camouflage, and which reminded me of a yellow "V".
But that's more intuition/deduction than real certainty.

 

It's curious to note that the "12 noir" I posted on the previous page appears to have the yellow "V", whereas it also has the yellow rudder and yellow stripe on the engine cowl.
Logically, the "V" should have disappeared.
But "logic" and "Luftwaffe" don't go very well together, at least not when it comes to camouflage!

Edited September 8, 2023 by Furie

[nmayhew]

Great discussion guys; super interesting!

[John1]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:24 AM, Furie said:

 

You mean that picture?

 

 

I don’t see a "V" under the wing.

It's amazing how much the "experts" can derive from staring intently at a poorly shot black and white photo from 80 years ago.    I've got to the point that I take all guidance on late war Luftwaffe paint jobs with a massive grain of salt.   For all we know, the dark patch above the starboard landing gear could be RLM81, 82, 74, 75, 71, 72 or from a can of purple house paint that groundcrewman Hans purchased from the local Haus Depote.

 

Or a custom mix using all of the above.   

 

 

[Furie]

Don't you think that's part of the charm of these camouflages?
The photo of the Luftwaffe aircraft graveyard that Martinnfb posted helped me review the possible colors of the "70 white" wing top.
And then the links to the books that Pvanroy and LSP_K2 posted, gave me a better understanding of the RLM 77 and why not put it on my future "70 white".
As long as you keep an open mind and aren't full of certainties, the exercise of divining these shades remains quite fun I think.
It's a serious business as long as you don't take yourself too seriously.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Furie

[John1]

17 hours ago, Furie said:

Don't you think that's part of the charm of these camouflages?
The photo of the Luftwaffe aircraft graveyard that Martinnfb posted helped me review the possible colors of the "70 white" wing top.
And then the links to the books that Pvanroy and LSP_K2 posted, gave me a better understanding of the RLM 77 and why not put it on my future "70 white".
As long as you keep an open mind and aren't full of certainties, the exercise of divining these shades remains quite fun I think.
It's a serious business as long as you don't take yourself too seriously.

Of course, the entire subject is fascinating.   I still have a dream that someday, a random kid is going to go through his great grandfather's old boxes up in the attic and find hundreds of color pictures that great grandpop took at the end of WW2 in Germany.    At which point, all questions will finally be put to rest. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by John1