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themongoose

F-84G Thunderbird - Complete!

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I almost forgot to add:

For any pin holes in an otherwise acceptable piece of foil, and/or a piece of foil you applied that has a gap, or tiny blemish too small to re-apply another section of foil over it, you can use Rub-N-buff or even an aluminum paint to fill the gaps or holes. 

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Research the helmet for the pilot.  If you can find it there is a softcover book that has all the ac they flew minus the F 16. It shows the helmets from every year.  The F 84 helmet didn’t have a visor.  If I remember they had googles 

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Well in the grand scheme of things this latest step goes down as EPIC FAIL :rofl: I tried out just the OD on the nose the other night and it stuck just fine to the foil. So with my new Silhouette I cut out my masks and started on the USAF markings. Easy right! Well nothing stuck. Paint came up clean right off the foil lol

IMG_6089-XL.jpg

 

going to need another idea for prepping the foil i think. Just an educated guess, I’m thinking there just wasn’t enough grain for the paint to stick to.

thinking about spraying a light coat of acid etching primer for metal 1st, then the paint. Any thoughts on this? Other ideas, I’ve thought about doing the grain again?

chris

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I've learned something with masking:  Trim the edges of the mask lightly with a fine blade first.  Avoids rough edges when you lift the mask.  Also...  don't let the paint completely harden.  Trim and then lift while the paint is not yet cured.

 

One thing I have found with foil is that paint doesn't like to stick to it.  Overspray and errors can be removed with a q-tip and some gentle rubbing.

 

HTH

 

Gaz

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ok, a little experimenting was in order, haha! If we jump to the end, well then I would have to say I'm on the right track but very wary of doing stars and bars and multiple colors that's for sure.

I took a practice piece and laid down Citadel chaos black primer, Duplicolor acid etching primer(good for aluminum), MCA Primer (matches the paint I use), and just straight olive drab paint(bottom one in pic). 

I sanded the aluminum foil with 400 grit paper. I did that based on directions for the acid etching primer. At this stage if 400 grit works I can experiment with the XX and XXX steel wool. Then on the left half of the test piece I burnished the aluminum down real well to see if smoothing out the foil affected the grip sanding offered the paint.

IMG_6104-XL.jpg

I left the top 2 alone and didn't spray any color coat over them.

I sprayed my gloss black over the acid etching primer, the gray primer, and the chaos black primer (2nd from bottom).

As it turned out burnishing didn't matter so at least I know I can do this before I spray the adhesive on (which is normal so I don't have to change the process). I just need to figure out how to make sure the paint is going to stick?

Gazzas I tried the trim trick but no matter what I did I left cuts in the foil. I was able to burnish them out so it looked ok in the end but alas, nothing fixed my overall problem with paint sticking to foil. 

Another side note, I'm using the dull side of the foil in all these trials.

IMG_6108-XL.jpg

A bit depressing for sure. Only the straight Citadel primer stuck. Scratching my head on this one. At the very least I can put the lettering and the USAF on the model. So here is how that turned out - 

IMG_6110-XL.jpg

 

 

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Back at it again :o I took a break and worked on some smaller scale stuff. Worked on some ideas of how to finish this. I decided to print the masks and cut the foil out where i needed to paint. Until i get some remedial help on painting foil i think I’m stuck. On a positive note the paint and foil will be almost level and very smooth. As of tonight I’ve finished the white and just now completed the blue. Not sure if I’ll get any further tomorrow as my son needs help on his car and then we have a wedding to attend this weekend so traveling for a few days. Anyway I ramble ;-) just 2 quik shots for the update. 

I may drag this along to Nats and if I catch up with any of you guys with foiling experience maybe you can look at it and see what I’m missing (kinda wondering if I’m not “graining” it enough for paint to stick).

 

IMG_6385-L.jpg

IMG_6386-L.jpg

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Prep, prep, prep and MORE prep of the surface! 

I usually use XX or even XXX graining on the foil before painting. I would also try enamel paint as an experiment over foil. Ive had good luck there that way.   Im about to undertake some paint over foil myself on my F-104 project.    As of today, I have not experimented with the likes of MRP over foil (my now go-to paint) but previously have always used MM enamel over paint.  

 

Im not sure what type of paint you are using, but a standard water or alcohol based acrylic may not be the best thing for shooting over foil. Graining does seem to be important, but if you get too much graining (IE with any larger deeper scratch marks in the foil) sometimes this can actually prevent the foil from sticking as well as it might normally, since it has to conform to all those hills and valleys in the foil.

 

- I might experimenting with using some XX or XXX steel wool, and some enamel paint, just as an experiment and see if you dont get better results.  

- Try using latex (NON powdered) or nitrile gloves while foiling as I have found that paint over foil is VERY susceptible to handling and the grease from fingers.  

- Take some 91% alcohol (dont use the 70% alcohol, as it wont do the job)to the entire surface to be painted, it really goes along way to helping paint stick

- If you haven't already, I might try de-tacking the masks a bit if you are pulling up any edges of the foil.

- Vary the grain a bit from panel to panel, as normally I grain the panel Im working on prior to applying it, as the multi-directional grain seems to sometimes also help things adhere

- Build up light coats with thinner paint and dont get the paint very thick when its on the foil, as the masks are more likely to pull up surrounding paint the thicker it is 

- I also might try varying the the type of paint as well. If you are using an acrylic, switch to an enamel or maybe even a lacquer or acrylic lacquer, as I found the oil based paints and the lacquers tend to give more of a bite to the foil

 

 

HTH

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I ve had some big nights painting over the last few days. My wife has been working 2nd shift so once dinner for the kids is done it’s off to my model space! Considering my issues along the way it appears the hybrid of foil and paint i did has some benefits. And I don’t just say that to rationalize away my problems :BANGHEAD2:  the paint layer turned out dead even with the foil thickness. Nearly impossible to tell they are different when running your finger across the surface. Now I did get brave and test out my paint on foil against tamiya tape...and the paint stayed on! I have to redo the bottom of one wing because the foil got messed up after so many painting attempts. When i do that I’ll try the XX and XXX steel wool and see if that fixes my problem. Here’s how it looks so far -

One of my larger tape sculptures

IMG_6387-L.jpg

 

Stars and scallops done by scaling up Tamiya’s 1/48 decals and cutting on my Cameo3

IMG_6388-L.jpg

 

Last a few in-process glamour shots

IMG_6389-L.jpg

IMG_6390-L.jpg

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14 hours ago, Out2gtcha said:

Prep, prep, prep and MORE prep of the surface! 

I usually use XX or even XXX graining on the foil before painting. I would also try enamel paint as an experiment over foil. Ive had good luck there that way.   Im about to undertake some paint over foil myself on my F-104 project.    As of today, I have not experimented with the likes of MRP over foil (my now go-to paint) but previously have always used MM enamel over paint.  

 

Im not sure what type of paint you are using, but a standard water or alcohol based acrylic may not be the best thing for shooting over foil. Graining does seem to be important, but if you get too much graining (IE with any larger deeper scratch marks in the foil) sometimes this can actually prevent the foil from sticking as well as it might normally, since it has to conform to all those hills and valleys in the foil.

 

- I might experimenting with using some XX or XXX steel wool, and some enamel paint, just as an experiment and see if you dont get better results.  

- Try using latex (NON powdered) or nitrile gloves while foiling as I have found that paint over foil is VERY susceptible to handling and the grease from fingers.  

- Take some 91% alcohol (dont use the 70% alcohol, as it wont do the job)to the entire surface to be painted, it really goes along way to helping paint stick

- If you haven't already, I might try de-tacking the masks a bit if you are pulling up any edges of the foil.

- Vary the grain a bit from panel to panel, as normally I grain the panel Im working on prior to applying it, as the multi-directional grain seems to sometimes also help things adhere

- Build up light coats with thinner paint and dont get the paint very thick when its on the foil, as the masks are more likely to pull up surrounding paint the thicker it is 

- I also might try varying the the type of paint as well. If you are using an acrylic, switch to an enamel or maybe even a lacquer or acrylic lacquer, as I found the oil based paints and the lacquers tend to give more of a bite to the foil

 

 

HTH

 

Thank you for the ideas. Most helpful.. I hadn’t mention before, the paint is a acrylic lacquer by MCW. Ver similar possibility to the MRP brand from the sounds of it but I haven’t got my MRP paint yet to compare. New options for me from your list will be the steel wool (the 400 grit i used instead of the XXXX steel wool sounds like it may have been too extreme), and varying the grain as in the areas i painted i did the grain all the same. No issues with pulling up the foil. I only have to redo it because I redid the masks 4 times to get paint to stick - the source of my :BANGHEAD2: Moments

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