Aussie Revell 1/32 Mirage Parts

[TTail]

A curious thread. I mean I wonder what Avions Marcel Dassault think of the Nesher,Dagger,Kifir series. A forum discussion like this between Israeli Aircraft Industries and Dassault would be interesting to say the least !

 

I am a former RAAF Mirage pilot and modeller and "Mirage Tragic". I have also purchased pretty much every Mirage correction/enhancement kit there is. I also contributed a lot of photos to the Mushroom publication on the Australian Mirage.

 

I have been in contact with Eric whilst he has been producing his resin correction/enhancement. With respect to the Wheel bays I provided detailed images of the inner workings of the wheel bays, Tail cone Drag chute area. All these images taken inside the Wheel bays of a former RAAF Mirage. These photos were explicitly done at Eric's request because he wanted to get the Wheel bays as accurate as possible to depict the RAAF Mirage. There are numerous differences between the RAAF Mirage IIIO and other variants. Another close friend of mine and LSP member has also provided Eric with images. Eric's work is flawless imo and easily sets the standard in 1/32scale Mirage III enhancements.

[LSP_Kevin]

While Chris is a little disappointed with the responses here to the issue at hand, I have to say I've been just a little bit impressed with their overall civility, given the contentious nature of the discussion. That it's remained just that - a discussion - is laudable, no matter what your take on the issue itself. Sure, a couple of comments along the way have probably been out of line, but nobody's resorted to genuine hostility.

 

My only remaining concern is that this discussion is playing out in the least appropriate of places, despite my request for it not to. Given what I've said above, I'm prepared at this stage to let the discussion, and all of its constituent comments, stand. However, we are working behind the scenes in an endeavour to resolve the issue to the mutual satisfaction of all parties concerned. This may not be possible, of course, but is certainly worth the effort.

 

Kev

[geedubelyer]

Hi Eric,

 

May I ask why you chose to alter the aftermarket parts rather than use the kit parts as a basis? It's obvious from your work that you are more than capable of taking the plastic and fashioning your masters from that. In that way, the kit manufacturers sales may be enhanced.

 

 

I'm surprised and disappointed by the responses here. Had it been an LSP regular, such as Jerry Rutman claiming that his parts were being stolen, I'm sure the crowd's reaction would have been much, much different.

As an impartial bystander I agree with these sentiments. LSP appears to pride itself on being the best modelling forum out there. Why can't both sides get a fair point across without being piled on? Surely the idea of debate is to listen to both sides of the story?

 

Cheers,

 

Guy

 

*Edit: Aplogies Kev, I was typing my comment as you were adding yours

Edited December 4, 2011 by geedubelyer

[ericg]

Hi guys,

 

I decided to use the Isracast parts as the basis of my own as I just wanted the basic shape, which was agreeable to being pulled out of a mould. As I point out, the new parts are to suit a totally different aircraft and are marketed as such. There is no similiarity, apart from basic shape of my wheel bays when put along side of each other. I am waiting on a reply to my PM to Ra'anan before putting side by side comparison pictures up for the world to see. Likewise to the engine. since the last pictures were taken, I have put another 36 parts into the exhaust area and will add even more and then re-cast it, just to make sure there is no doubt as to the difference between the two products. Needless to say, this could become embarrasing to one of the parties involved as there is a big difference in the amount of detail applied.

 

Chris, to say that i have stolen someone elses parts is a bit of a stretch mate. I hardly see myself needing to steal anything. I would consider stealing to be running off massive quanties of your missiles (which I have the technology to do) and then selling them. I purchased two pairs of sidewinders off you to sling under my F-4J. I could have just purchased one and made a copy. Believe me, I have been approached to make copies of these missiles multiple times for other people but have said no. I support the aftermarket industry. The same with any of the parts in the Isracast set.

 

To answer your questions:

 

Q: How would you feel if you created a product and somebody took it, modified it and sold it as their own?

A: How much modification are we talking about here?

 

Q: Would it be OK for me to buy an LSP Corsiar cowl, modify it and sell it as a Zactomodels product?

A: To make it into a totally different version that would suit a different aircraft? I guess so.

 

Q: Would it be OK for me to buy some AMS parts, modify them and sell them as Zactomodels parts?

A: Once again, how much modification?

 

A few more questions:

 

Q: If you had spent hundreds of hours handmaking or paid big bucks for a CAD designer and prototype firm to create a master pattern for your business and a competitor asked you permission to use your part to master their own pattern, for free, how would you reply?

 

A: I have spent hundreds of hours of my time modifying the part and correcting it, to make it into a new part. I tried to contact Ra'anan but to no success. If someone wants to come and buy my parts and convert them into a totally new part then be my guest.

 

As far as my product impacting on or taking away sales from Ra'anan. Many of my parts have been made to complement his sets and I would love to see my parts on a Nesher. I could quite easily scratch build any of the products that he has in his sets that are unique to Isreali Mirages (and believe me, they would be far better), and offer them as stand alone products. The demand would be huge. This would potentially impact on his bottom line, something I would not do. Likewise to your line of products. (although it would be hard to better some of your stuff). I have always supported the aftermarket industry and will continue to do so. It is a shame that my practices have come as a surprise to some as I am led to believe that it is the norm. I only have to look in one of my boxes in my stash that I have two aftermarket cockpits for and see that one is a copy of another in some basic details and shape only, although the newer one is far better. This is from a reputable and well known company. I cant recall seeing any fuss being made about that.

 

Maybe it is because I am new, having only got into casting parts in the last few months. Well, let me say, if innovation and and improvement as I have set about to do is frowned upon then maybe it is best to just accept the status quo and model my own models, for me and not worry about putting myself on the line as I have done.

 

Eric.

Edited December 4, 2011 by ericg

[LSP_Matt]

For me, I won't 'borrow' parts created by any aftermarket company. I consider this stealing from my competitor.

I have no problem with modifying plastic kit parts. Aftermarket parts are made to enhance the plastic kit manufacturers products, not compete with them.

I do prefer to scratchbuild my patterns as much as possible.

 

I perhaps don't share the same perspective Chris. If anyone else reading this was in the position of trying to adjudicate fairly then one of the primary concerns is surely 'consistency' in policy. I don't see any principle difference between taking a manufacturers injection moulded product, tweaking it, casting it in resin and selling it on one hand and what Eric has done. The only difference is that Erics template was resin and not a kit part. If you're applying a moral principle then I can't see how Eric has done anything other than the norm.

 

The argument has also been made that the products of the injection moulding companies and after-market resin manufacturers are not in competition so therefore its OK to use an injection moulded part as a template and modify it. Again, I simply do not agree that whilst this is on one hand regarded as OK, what Eric has done is not. I think what happened with the Su27 mods being incorporated into a newer version of the kit wasn't right nor fair.

 

My perception is that if the resin product is not substantively different than the original plastic piece then it also infringes on the original injection moulding manufacturers copyright privileges. The issue here is copyright and a degree of consistency to protect the original creator is it not? This is also why we perfectly understand your perspective and Ra'anan's. It's also why I believe Eric thinks he is being perfectly reasonable given he has substantively modified the Isracast parts.

 

Had it been an LSP regular, such as Jerry Rutman claiming that his parts were being stolen, I'm sure the crowd's reaction would have been much, much different.

Perhaps so but the staff's reaction and efforts behind the scenes would be the same regardless of who it was. We strive to apply a standard equitably no matter whether someone is a regular or not.

 

Matt

[LSP_Matt]

The difference is, instead of using the kit parts as a basis for his conversion, Eric chose to use the Isracast parts as a foundation on which to build his own product. Parts that had already been improved beyond the kit's contents. Parts that cost Isracast time, effort and money to create. Without permission, or apparently remorse.

Steve.

In the first instance its a kit part and in the second its an aftermarket resin part. Each part has an originator to whom copyright privileges apply. If in both cases the parts used as templates (resin or plastic) are subsequently substantially modified that isn't a different process at all. For your contention to be valid you would need to believe that kit manufactuers ought to be ascribed a different set of standards to those that apply to resin manufacturers when it comes to copyright.

 

I fail to see how permission is a requirement and in order to be remorseful one would have to acknowledge wrongdoing.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your analogy either Stevo. A court would seek evidence that the legitimate attempts had been made to establish contact. If that could be proved and no response was forthcoming from the other end then any obligations on Eric would be forfeited. That he tried in the first instance shows a level of 'consideration' was already in mind before the modifications began.

 

Perhaps a better analgoy would be a red light at night when riding a motorbike. You do the right thing and stop. The lights simply do not change. You go over the strips to trigger a sequence change and nothing works. What? Do you wait all night or hope a car will come along for the lights to work properly? Of course not...you accept the limitations of the system, ensure no danger and proceed cautiously.

 

Oh...just a really important clarification. Eric hasn't copied parts. He has used some of them as templates upon which substantial modifications have been done and then recast them.

 

Cheers Matt

[bdthoresen]

Hm, a very intresting conversation to be sure. But I must commend all parties involved for remaining civil. Thanks for that.

 

I believe if Eric had taken Isracast's parts, say for instance the wheel wells, and added one more hydraulic line to the existing part, cast it and started selling it, that in my mind would be shady to say the least. However, if he did in fact use the outer shell, which let's face facts is a slab-sided box, to which he added all of the relevant detail, which bears no resemblance to the original parts, then fair play. It would appear that he extensively modified the gear mounts to take G-factor's gear, as well as most, if not all of the plumbing that is relevant to the Aussie Mirage. I think a side-by-side comparison would be prudent.

 

As far as the tail end- Same in my mind goes- Whether ir not he uses Isracast's shell, or Revell's shell for the shape of the insert as a starting point, why would it matter? If the end result is completely different, then fair play. For some reason, there seems to be this mentality that if you start with a kit maker's part, and modify it and add more detail, cast it, it only enhances the kit maker's profits. But if you start with an aftermarket part, modify and detail it, it is somehow wrong. Two points here-

 

1) I think that the financial argument is skewed in so much that many of the parts that are made are for kits that are long out of production. Take the Mirage, for example. Revell is planning a limited re-release in the coming months....Are Eric's parts going to raise kit sales to a point where Revell is going to double their profits? I think not.

 

2) If you start with a kit part, or someone else's aftermarket part, you are still using someone else's part as a starting point. I am sorry, you cannot say it is ok to start with a kit part, and turn around and say it is not ok to start with an aftermarket kit part. It is a contradiction. And let us face facts- The cost of a kit maker's tooling compared to an aftermarket companies is far higher. They put in just as much work to acheive an end result. Does the fact that it is a corporation, with a team of people to do what one man in an aftermarket company does make it any more ok? I do not think so.

 

I in no way think copying someone else's work for profit is ok. And if Eric was just cranking out straight castings of Isracast's parts, as they are and marketing them as his own, that would be wrong on many levels......

 

I know that some folks on this site have had their work copied (I can think of Zactoman's A-7 correction issue) and the circumstances surrounding such situations were horrible. I can understand the passionate feelings of all parties involved.

 

But re-engineering parts in the aftermarket business is the way it is.....If they are different, fair play. If they are not- Then that is theft.

 

Hope that a side-by-side comparison will be forthcoming. Only then will it perhaps lay this issue to rest.

 

Eric, FWIW, I like your work. Please keep us updated on your Mirage build.

 

THOR

[LSP_Ron]

 

I post things from time to time, letting the LSPers in on anything I am making. How else do we do that? I am on the Vendors Board too, so sometime I will link them to each other.

 

Cheers,

Harold

 

And your encouraged to continue to do so

 

Ron

[Harold]

And your encouraged to continue to do so

 

Ron

Thanks Ron...

Some times I wonder if it is all worth it.

I used to really enjoy doing after market stuff, (mainly because I can't finish a model these days..LOL)

Nah, I still enjoy doing the research and challenging myself to see if I can do it.

Thanks again,

Harold

[Zactoman]

Let me point out that I don't know Ra'anan. I did see him at an IPMS Nationals and said hello.

Had the tables been turned and Eric had created the original part and Ra'anan was using it without his permission I would have come to Eric's defense.

 

 

Chris, to say that i have stolen someone elses parts is a bit of a stretch mate.

Ra'anan used the word "steeling" (sp). I have been using the word "borrowing" but stated that I wouldn't do the same because I consider it to be stealing.

 

 

As far as my product impacting on or taking away sales from Ra'anan.

A point I am trying to make is that it is much more expensive for Ra'anan to run his business because he is paying to have CAD work and SLAs created.

Whether your product is competitive or not, it's cheaper for you to exist as a business if you 'borrow' other companies parts to use as templates.

 

 

Let me try to put this situation in simpler terms so others might understand my point of view:

 

Lets say that "Joe Modeler" wants to produce this resin exhaust and market it.

Let's also say that Ra'anan's part doesn't exist, there is no suitable part to use as a 'template' and the kit part just won't do.

 

Is Joe capable of making something this complex by hand? I think not. I consider myself a pretty good modeler and I couldn't create this from scratch without going to extremes.

What are the other options?

Old school machining - It would be difficult but could be done. Is Joe a machinist? Does he have a lathe, mill and indexing head? If not what would it cost him to hire a machinist?

CAD - Is Joe a CAD designer? Does he have the software and experience to create this part on computer? If not then how much would it cost him to hire a CAD designer?

CNC - Assuming the CAD files are done, does Joe have a CNC machine? How much would it cost him to have a CNC part produced?

SLA/Rapid Prototyping - Expensive! Can Joe afford this?

 

Maybe Joe could hire Ra'anan to create a "template" for him.

How much would Ra'anan charge for this service?

What if Ra'anan, being a competing aftermarket company, refused the job not wanting to help a competitor?

 

 

 

The aftermarket business is not a great way to make money. Every project is a gamble.

Will I sell enough to pay for the materials? Will I sell enough to pay for all of my time creating the parts?

Ra'anan made a business decision to invest his own money to pay for CAD design and an SLA pattern.

Eric is taking a short cut and getting a "template" for free.

[Kais]

Gentlemen,

Let me start by saying that I took many digital images for Eric, so I can not claim neutrality in this discussion.

 

Posting comparison pics might just be counter-productive to resolving this issue, in that I believe, we as a community have no right to some kind of arbitrator role in this event, so a comparison is possibly little more than voyeurism on our part.

"Show US the before and after and we'll decide". If "we" vote; go ahead Eric, we alienate Isracast, if "we" decide Eric should cease, would he,should he ,what authority do "we" think we have?

Input on the forum level will result in partisan positions being taken and one or other party will feel slighted.

This issue is best left to Eresin and Isracast to resolve without the input of any one else.

In the final analysis the market will decide.

 

At the end of the day I would like to see one more resin caster available to the modelling public, not one less.

[ericg]

Chris, can you confirm to the forum in general that all of your parts have been 100% scratchbuilt please? that is, you have not built upon a basic shape from the kit part, or other brand of aftermarket manufacturer.

 

Wumm, I am sure that there are folks here wondering why it is all worth it, when there are people such as your self that seem to be very negative against aftermarket companies. I have gone back through the posts that you linked to, and it seems that you quite readily make it hard for people to strive to innovate. I draw attention to the wheel well of the Focke Wulf as my case in point.

 

Your comment that I `purchased another individual's intellectual property for the express purpose of profiting from their work without their permission-' Is totally untrue. I purchased a Nesher conversion based on one small picture on Isra's website. I never had any intention of doing anything other than useing most of the parts for an Aussie Mirage. I hadn't even purchased any equipment to cast resin at that point. The more I looked at it, the more I realised that the set would need major modification to suit the Mirage III.

 

Gents, I have spent more than enough time defending my postition on this, time that I could have better spent coming up with other products, and working through the mountain of orders that I have. We are sorting this out back channel and I would much prefer that it remains that way.

 

In the future, my efforts in resin may just sudddenly appear in the vendors forum, as to go and post them as WIP's, so that I could show you how I have learnt this art form has effectively seen me far out on a limb.

 

Eric.

Edited December 4, 2011 by ericg

[LSP_Kevin]

This issue is best left to Eresin and Isracast to resolve without the input of any one else.

 

Indeed it is, which is exactly what we're trying to accomplish behind the scenes. There's an opportunity here to turn an ugly situation into something that is satisfactory to all concerned, and could potentially result in a positive situation. But that's up to the two parties involved, and our various positions as stated in this thread really have no bearing on that. I'll do what I can to facilitate the situation, but the outcome is not up to me. I can only hope that Ra'anan is able to soften his umbrage sufficiently to allow the situation to move forward.

 

I'm formally requesting that members cease from engaging in further commentary and speculation in this thread. When I get a chance, I will split it off at the point where it ceased being about Eric's Mirage build, and move the subsequent discussion to its own thread elsehwere.

 

Kev

[ericg]

Kev,

 

Please let Zactoman answer my question to him before splitting it.

 

Eric.

[Zactoman]

Chris, can you confirm to the forum in general that all of your parts have been 100% scratchbuilt please?

I have used a few modified plastic kit parts as the basis for some of my products.

The vast majority of my products are completely scratchbuilt.

None of my products have used any competitive aftermarket parts.

 

 

I'm formally requesting that members cease from engaging in further commentary and speculation in this thread. When I get a chance, I will split it off at the point where it ceased being about Eric's Mirage build, and move the subsequent discussion to its own thread elsehwere.

Please let Zactoman answer my question to him before splitting it.

I agree that this topic deserves a thread of its own, I also think there should be a link provided in this thread with a brief explanation of the dispute. After all, it was pointed out that this entire thread is essentially an advertisement for E-Resin.

 

 

 

While I agree that it shouldn't be up to the public to decide the outcome, they should be aware and be able to make a comparison to decide for themselves and with their wallets.

 

First the Isra parts:

The E-Resin part:

 

 

"Templates"?

I think the pictures speak for themselves...