Aussie Revell 1/32 Mirage Parts

[Isradecal]

NOTE: This thread has been split from a topic in Works in Progress to allow for the continued CIVIL discussion of Eric's E-Resin parts as they relate to Isracast's originals.

 

 

Eric

 

I'm quite in shock to see that you take my Nesher/ Dagger exhaust which was computer designed by Bekim Lulaj from Germany and was printed and casted in Israel and use it on your conversion.

 

You have no shame using it and not even mentioning the source of it nor the source of your main landing gear bays as well as some of the scoops in resin and photoetch vents. I'm guessing that you'll use other parts as well.

All came from my Nesher conversion which was release in the summer of 2011. Since I don't not know yet how to upload images, I do not include images of the exhaust.

http://www.isradecal.com/?storeid=110&view=products&id=330900

http://www.isradecal.com/?storeid=110&view=products&id=330901

 

In the review for your nose conversion there is no mention of Isracast 3 different Kfir conversion and the 2 Nesher Dagger conversion, all for the Revel kits, for a reason.

 

We are releasing many resin sets and decals for the 1/32 modelers and putting a lot of effort into them.

We are releasing this December Israel F-4 Phantom conversion, IAF P-51 Mustang weapon sets and an IMI Delilah 2 missiles, all in 1/32. Also we releasing two sets of decals. One is for Israeli AF Spitfire and the second for the IAF P-51D mustang. Both are for the Tamiya 1/32 kits.

 

Ra'anan Weiss

Isradecal Studio

Edited December 5, 2011 by LSP_Kevin
Added explanation

[LSP_Kevin]

Eric

 

I'm quite in shock to see that you take my Nesher/ Dagger exhaust which was computer designed by Bekim Lulaj from Germany and was printed and casted in Israel and use it on your conversion.

 

You have no shame using it and not even mentioning the source of it nor the source of your main landing gear bays as well as some of the scoops in resin and photoetch vents. I'm guessing that you'll use other parts as well.

All came from my Nesher conversion which was release in the summer of 2011. Since I don't not know yet how to upload images, I do not include images of the exhaust.

http://www.isradecal.com/?storeid=110&view=products&id=330900

http://www.isradecal.com/?storeid=110&view=products&id=330901

 

In the review for your nose conversion there is no mention of Isracast 3 different Kfir conversion and the 2 Nesher Dagger conversion, all for the Revel kits, for a reason.

 

We are releasing many resin sets and decals for the 1/32 modelers and putting a lot of effort into them.

We are releasing this December Israel F-4 Phantom conversion, IAF P-51 Mustang weapon sets and an IMI Delilah 2 missiles, all in 1/32. Also we releasing two sets of decals. One is for Israeli AF Spitfire and the second for the IAF P-51D mustang. Both are for the Tamiya 1/32 kits.

 

Ra'anan Weiss

Isradecal Studio

 

Well Ra'anan, that's a pretty strong first post on LSP, and I'd like to address a couple of your accusations. Firstly, if you check the image of Eric's work-in-progress main wheel bay, you'll see that it appears to be scratch-built, not copied from someone else's part. I don't see how you could say they were your parts. Even if your parts formed some basis for them, there seems to significant new and original in Eric's parts to the extent that they would qualify as new and original. That is no different from modifying an existing kit part and selling it as a resin upgrade (and we all know that happens all the time).

 

Personally I take great umbrage at your implication that our review of Eric's nose cone, which I wrote, was somehow dishonest, misleading or otherwise deceitful. I know nothing of your products, and know or care even less about Israeli Mirages, Kfirs, Neshers and the like. They were not left out of the review for any other reason than I wasn't aware of them (discounting the fact that I was reviewing Eric's products, not yours). This kind of lazy slight will not win you any friends here.

 

I suggest that if you have any issue with Eric's work or parts, you take it up with Eric back-channel, and leave the ugly mud-slinging off the public forums. I've left this post stand so that we're not accused of unfair censorship or blindly protecting our own. In doing so, I'm also allowing Eric his public right of reply. But after that, I will not allow this to escalate and play out on LSP.

 

Kev

[Isradecal]

Hi Kev

 

I have no problem for him to use my parts to any of him model and if wants to modify them, no problem. Be may guess.

For his modeling there in no problem. I'm just saying that he could have mention that he modified our wheel well (and it is our and you can check with Eric) and not write that he took some bay from somewhere (this is what he wrote in his own words).

He can also use the exhaust, no problem, but for his modeling and not for taking them as parts for HIS conversion. His name is already there... This is the issue!

I don't care what he will use from my sets and parts. Every one doing so and this how it should be, but when it coming for commercial using of this that you actually steeling from someone else, this is a different issue.

I think you will agree with me about it.

 

You can publish it or not it is up to you.

 

All the best

 

Ra'anan Weiss

[ericg]

Hi Ra'anan

 

Thanks for the post. Since you decided to make it public, I will respond in a public way to you.

 

I understand your concern about people using your parts and I will take you through the process that I went through in creating my parts. I purchased your Nesher conversion from Luckymodel almost 4 months ago, with the intent on using the parts to make an Aussie Mirage III. The further I looked into it, the more I realised that I would have to modify the parts in order to make them work in the way that I wanted to. I stripped out almost all detail in both the main gear bays and all of the detail in the nose gear bays and added more than 140 parts of copper wire, solder wire, tin, plastic card, blutac, and tamiya tape to the bare shells of the 3 bays to create the masters. I made the modifications based on dozens of photos taken for me of RAAF Mirage wheel bays. You will notice that I have made the gear bays to fit the Gee-Factor brass undercarriage legs. Yours fit a totally different brand. You will also notice that the nose gear bay is a one piece unit whereas the Isra one is two. I could safely say that it took me more than 3 weeks of work to come up with what I have here.

 

I would happily put comparison photos up of my gear bays next to yours and let the guys on this forum be the judge as to whether I have copied your product or not.

 

As for the exhaust. When I put the pictures of the tailcone exhaust combo up on this board, I did state that I modified another manufacturers exhaust. I took the Isracast Nesher tailcone and extended it 4 mm around its base to make it more accurate, removed the whole brake chute cannister and made a new one out of brass pipe to the correct length. I turned a new chute lid from a spare Matra R530 nose cone, scribed it and then laid down some thin tin over the cannister to create the raised panel over the top of the pipe. I then scribed the two lines down the bottom of the tailcone and the 4 access panels around the circumference of the tailcone. In all honesty, it would have been easier to mod the kit tailcone. I then modified your exhaust by making the inner petals more 3 dimensional. I then glued this exhaust into the tailcone and scratchbuilt the first layer of the inner corrugations out of crimped tin. I then layed this into the tailcone and then cast the whole unit as one piece.

 

As far as the scoops and brass vents.. These are from your Nesher conversion. Not hiding anything there mate. These are ones that I have purchased and am using on my own kit. You would be very wrong to assume that I will make copies of these and sell them as my own.

 

I did contact you twice in the past through your website asking for more detailed photos of your conversion before i purchased it so that I could see what I was buying. I purchased the Nesher conversion based on the small pic on your web. I also contacted you asking if you were interested in doing an Australian conversion. Both times I recieved no reply.

 

As for the review of the nose cone. I took the 2 halves of the Revell Mirage III nose cone from the kit, glued them together, slightly modified the shape and then spent hours scribing the 2 lines around the circumference and even more time scribing the 4 access panels. How is my nose cone related in any way to your Isracast Nesher or Dagger conversions?

 

Now I have laid out how I manufactured my parts, would you care to say how you made yours?

 

As for affecting your business, I am quite certain that should a modeller want to make a Nesher, dagger or a Kfir then they will buy you conversions. My stuff is aimed very firmly at the modeller who wants to do an Aussie version.

 

Eric.

Edited December 2, 2011 by ericg

[Out2gtcha]

I have a Revell Mirage III at home. I also have Ernies gear for it.

 

Based on what i have read (let alone seen pics of ) here, as well as the attitude, overtones and nature of the posts I know where I will be getting all my AM Mirage III parts from.

 

 

Sign me up Eric.

 

Brian

[Harold]

I have a Revell Mirage III at home. I also have Ernies gear for it.

 

Based on what i have read (let alone seen pics of ) here, as well as the attitude, overtones and nature of the posts I know where I will be getting all my AM Mirage III parts from.

 

 

Sign me up Eric.

 

Brian

I agree Brian...as soon as I get the resin goodies from Eric, I will do a mini review and post it here.

Cheers,

Harold

[Harold]

Eric

 

I'm quite in shock to see that you take my Nesher/ Dagger exhaust which was computer designed by Bekim Lulaj from Germany and was printed and casted in Israel and use it on your conversion.

 

You have no shame using it and not even mentioning the source of it nor the source of your main landing gear bays as well as some of the scoops in resin and photoetch vents. I'm guessing that you'll use other parts as well.

All came from my Nesher conversion which was release in the summer of 2011. Since I don't not know yet how to upload images, I do not include images of the exhaust.

http://www.isradecal.com/?storeid=110&view=products&id=330900

http://www.isradecal.com/?storeid=110&view=products&id=330901

 

In the review for your nose conversion there is no mention of Isracast 3 different Kfir conversion and the 2 Nesher Dagger conversion, all for the Revel kits, for a reason.

 

We are releasing many resin sets and decals for the 1/32 modelers and putting a lot of effort into them.

We are releasing this December Israel F-4 Phantom conversion, IAF P-51 Mustang weapon sets and an IMI Delilah 2 missiles, all in 1/32. Also we releasing two sets of decals. One is for Israeli AF Spitfire and the second for the IAF P-51D mustang. Both are for the Tamiya 1/32 kits.

 

Ra'anan Weiss

Isradecal Studio

If you wanted to do an advertisement for your products...you should join the Vendor's Board.

[LSP_Mike]

gentlemen, please stick to the build! ANY issues should be handled via PMs! This is a good build of an Aussie Mirage, and I for one am liking the detail I'm seeing. I got to see one of these in OZ, and it is always a pleasure to see the level of detail that can be obtained.

[Zactoman]

I hate to get involved in this but what I see happening here is just wrong...

 

Modifying a kit part and turning it into an aftermarket part is much different than modifying somebody else's aftermarket part and selling it as your own.

If someone wants to buy these "Australian Mirage" aftermarket parts they still need to purchase the Revell kit to use them and Revell still makes a profit.

Eric is selling parts that were created by Ra'anan and Ra'anan is getting nothing in return for his hard work.

 

Simply removing a few details and replacing them with your own doesn't change the fact that Ra'anan made the original parts, shaped and sized them to fit and created all of the detail that wasn't removed.

 

Put yourself in Ra'anans shoes.

How would you feel if you created a product and somebody took it, modified it and sold it as their own?

Would it be OK for me to buy an LSP Corsiar cowl, modify it and sell it as a Zactomodels product?

Would it be OK for me to buy some AMS parts, modify them and sell them as Zactomodels parts?

I don't think so...

Edited December 3, 2011 by Zactoman

[LSP_Matt]

I hate to get involved in this but what I see happening here is just wrong...

 

Hi Chris,

We've been discussing this topic in the staff forum after Ra'anans post in this thread. Whilst I do understand your perspective this is an awkward and far from totally clear cut issue. Others, including Harold who obviously manufactures his own line of resin parts don't seem to share the same view as you or Ra'anan. I'm not saying you're right nor do you have a totally unreasonable perspective.

 

I guess the issue is 'how much modification' does a product have to undergo before its is perceived to be something totally new. Obviously Eric has done a lot of research and heavily modified the original parts. His perspective will be that it is substantively different. On the other hand the origins of what is now before us in this thread is clearly recognisable to others leading to a not entirely illegitimate sense of ownership.

 

We talked about examples. I raised the PCM Spitfire Mk9 kits which duplicated Hasegawa MkV kit parts along with their errors. The resin Tony that Radu made is a substantially altered Revell kit, the Arado a heavily modified Combat Models kit. Jay Laverty has told me he modified kit wheels and improved them to create some of his resin weighted wheels. All of these well accepted aftermarket products haven't attracted similar attention.

 

We'd welcome perspectives from anyone about this but would really much prefer it be done via PM. Its probably not fair to Eric to play this situation out in his build thread.

 

Cheers Matty

[ericg]

Zactoman,

 

I totally agree with you mate but with one major point. I never modified anybodies parts to take away business from anybody else. I have turned someone elses parts into something totally different, aimed at a totally different market. The parts in contention here are the wheel wells and the exhaust. As I set out in my reply to Ra'anans post, the wheel wells that I am doing now are totally different to what was originally purchased by me. I used the basic shell of the Isra wheel wells and added a major amount of detail into the 3 bays, all of which is my own work. This took over 3 weeks of work to complete, multiple goes to get the moulds right and then test fitting, modifiying, test fitting and then re-moulding. I am sorry but I would not be able to state that these bays were anyone elses work apart from my own. They are accurate for a RAAF Mirage III.

 

Now lets talk about the exhaust. I did a reasonable amount of research into what was available on the market and come up with a few options for my own use. Purchase the Isra Nesher conversion (which I did), try and get a MC exhaust which is as rare as hens teeth or scratch my own (this was all before I learnt how to cast resin). I have been contacted by alot of guys wanting an exhaust, and alot of guys wanting a new tailcone on top of all of the other parts that I have created. Now Ra'anans exhaust and jet pipe are nice pieces of work but there is some innacuracies for the particular model of Mirage III, fitted with an ATAR 9C engine that I want to portray. His tailcone is a slightly modified kit item with a few pieces of photo etch to attach, which once again, is innacurate for the aircraft that I wish to portray. I totally rebuilt the tailcone as I stated in my first reply. It is now a completely different shape. I then modified his exhaust pipe, attached it inside my tailcone, and then set about scratching the first layer of corrugations and glued them inside the tailcone exhaust assembly. I then cast the whole assembly as one unit. I am now about to throw almost 40 extra parts into this combo to give it extra detail. I will then recast it (which requires another mould to be made up and check it for fit as per my photos as above.) I have not seen Ra'anan offer an exhaust/tailcone combination in one piece that looks anything like what I am offering!

 

Call me naive but I can't see what I have done wrong here. If somebody wants an Israeli Nesher, they are going to go and buy the Isracast set. I have pointed out to a few of my customers that that is the way to go if they want to do certain things with their Mirage. If somebody wants to upgrade the exhaust/tailcone area of their Mirage, they are not going to go out and buy a $139 conversion just to do it are they. Likewise to the wheel wells.

 

I hope you can see that I am being quite transparent in my efforts and have been totally honest with the way in which I have approached this matter. It would be totally different if I was just making copies and selling them. Have you seen pictures of both products next to each other? there is no way that anybody could confuse my product from Ra'anans.

 

As far as playing this out on a public forum, I don't really mind. I have a clear concious on this matter and am only too happy to go into detail of what I have done to manufacutre the parts that I have come up with so far.

 

 

Eric.

Edited December 3, 2011 by ericg

[Zactoman]

As far as playing this out on a public forum, I don't really mind. I have a clear concious on this matter and am only too happy to go into detail of what I have done to manufacutre the parts that I have come up with so far.

OK then...

It's a question of morals as well as copyright infringement. Unfortunately the aftermarket business doesn't generate enough profit to afford lawyers, particularly when your dispute is with somebody overseas.

I never modified anybodies parts to take away business from anybody else. I have turned someone elses parts into something totally different, aimed at a totally different market.

 

Call me naive but I can't see what I have done wrong here. If somebody wants an Israeli Nesher, they are going to go and buy the Isracast set. I have pointed out to a few of my customers that that is the way to go if they want to do certain things with their Mirage. If somebody wants to upgrade the exhaust/tailcone area of their Mirage, they are not going to go out and buy a $139 conversion just to do it are they. Likewise to the wheel wells.

What if Ra'anan plans to release the exhaust and wheel wells as separate products in the future? He would then have to compete against improved versions of his own products.

What if Ra'anan does plan to release an Australian version in the future? Again, he'd be competing against his own parts.

What if there is a model maker with a limited budget who has to decide which set to purchase. If he buys yours then Ra'anan not only lost a sale but unwillingly helped finance your profit.

What if he simply doesn't want his hard work being sold by someone else?

 

 

The parts in contention here are the wheel wells and the exhaust.

I used the basic shell of the Isra wheel wells and added a major amount of detail into the 3 bays, all of which is my own work.

Now lets talk about the exhaust... I then modified his exhaust pipe, attached it inside my tailcone...

Why use the basic shell of Ra'anan's wheel wells rather than just make your own? They are pretty easy shapes to create.

The basic shells would have only added a couple of extra hours. But then looking at your pictures it appears that there is still quite a bit of the original detail of Ra'anan's on the insides that would have taken many more hours to create.

 

Why didn't you simply make your own exhaust?

Because it's not that simple. It would be very difficult to scratch that part yourself.

It could be done though. You could have modified the kit parts and spent countless hours doing the intricate details.

You could have even done some artwork and paid to have photo-etch made to detail the kit part, but that would have been expensive.

You could have paid a CAD designer to model it for you and then paid a rapid prototype firm to generate an SLA master pattern for you, as Ra'anan did, but that would be really expensive.

 

It's much easier, cheaper and faster to use somebody else's work as your foundation, especially when much of the difficult work has already been done for you. It's also wrong...

 

 

I'll ask these questions again:

How would you feel if you created a product and somebody took it, modified it and sold it as their own?

Would it be OK for me to buy an LSP Corsiar cowl, modify it and sell it as a Zactomodels product?

Would it be OK for me to buy some AMS parts, modify them and sell them as Zactomodels parts?

A few more questions:

If you had spent hundreds of hours handmaking or paid big bucks for a CAD designer and prototype firm to create a master pattern for your business and a competitor asked you permission to use your part to master their own pattern, for free, how would you reply?

How about asking Paul or Brian from Fisher Models what they think?

Jerry Crandall?

Radu Brinzan?

John from AIMs?

I can't imagine any aftermarket company that would approve of their parts being 'borrowed', modified and sold by another company without permission.

 

 

What's the right thing to do at this point? I see three options:

1. Since you've already invested this much effort in the project, ask Ra'anan's permission to use his parts. He will either say "no", "yes" or "yes, for a price".

2. Start over and make your own parts.

3. Don't sell the parts.

[LSP_Matt]

It's much easier, cheaper and faster to use somebody else's work as your foundation, especially when much of the difficult work has already been done for you. It's also wrong...

 

And yet despite this Chris it does happen widely in the industry. Of course its essential to clarify that we're not talking here about the outright duplication of anyones elses work. In Erics case he's either completely scratchbuilt parts of stripped and heavily modified base resin parts.

 

So where is the line? That moral boundary that must exist between beginning from scratch and using another piece of work as a template (an existing kit, an existing piece of artwork, existing resin modification). I guess you could also phrase it, when do you consider that a product has been modified enough to morally consider that its no longer the original? Is it 10%, 20%, 30%? How much is enough to be substantively different?

 

Personally I'd love to hear from any of the other resin guys and what perspectives they have.

 

Matt

[ericg]

Chris,

 

I am sure I am not a pioneer in the way that I have made 2 of the products that I have done for the Mirage so far. I am certainly not going to wait around for anyone to make an Aussie version of aircraft that I am modelling just in case someone else wants to do one in the future. There is a giant gap in the market for the niche that I am catering for and if anything, most of the parts that I have made are designed to complement the Israel kit, not compete with it.. Intakes, pylons, matra, mirage III nose etc.

 

You have totally missed my point. I am not going to withdraw any of my products as they are totally different to what they started life as. Are you going to go on the offensive against all of the other aftermarket guys that have approached each part in the same manner? I have pointed many guys in the direction of Isracast when asked about some of the other parts that have been hanging off my Mirage and have resulted in extra sales for him. What I may not do is put up WIPs of my builds of the aftermarket parts that I am going to do, just so that some folks don't get upset that I am improving/modifying parts just as has been done probably since resin casting was invented.

 

 

Eric.

[Zactoman]

In Erics case he's either completely scratchbuilt parts of stripped and heavily modified base resin parts.

 

So where is the line? That moral boundary that must exist between beginning from scratch and using another piece of work as a template

For me, I won't 'borrow' parts created by any aftermarket company. I consider this stealing from my competitor.

I have no problem with modifying plastic kit parts. Aftermarket parts are made to enhance the plastic kit manufacturers products, not compete with them.

I do prefer to scratchbuild my patterns as much as possible.

 

 

I am sure I am not a pioneer in the way that I have made 2 of the products that I have done for the Mirage so far.

...I am improving/modifying parts just as has been done probably since resin casting was invented.

And yet despite this Chris it does happen widely in the industry.

As far as I know, aftermarket companies using their competitors parts is a rare occurrence.

Rhino Modelworks was recently accused of piracy on ARC and I shared my opinions: http://s362974870.on...pic=239521&st=0

I'm not aware of any instances of reputable aftermarket companies using competitors parts.

 

 

Are you going to go on the offensive against all of the other aftermarket guys that have approached each part in the same manner?

I have in the past contacted a few aftermarket companies to alert them that their parts were being used or outright pirated by other people.

In this case I felt I needed to speak out because of the way Ra'anan was being piled on.

Frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed by the responses here. Had it been an LSP regular, such as Jerry Rutman claiming that his parts were being stolen, I'm sure the crowd's reaction would have been much, much different.

 

 

I think now that the cat is well and truly out of the bag, that it would go some way to restoring a little understanding to the situation if it were possible for Eric to add some photos of his masters next to the Isradecal parts to see exactly how much modification has been made.

It would be interesting to see the parts comparison.

I don't think it's up to the audience to decide if they are modified enough to be acceptably different though.

They are Ra'anan's parts and he has already expressed his opinion.