Spitfire Mk1. Differences between Mid and Late

[mozart]

VERY useful pictures and information Sir, thank you for posting them all. 

[Pete Roberts]

Based on posts from (the late) Edgar Brooks and info in the recent Richard Alexander Wingleader book, it appears these windows were introduced in (mid?) November 1940  and deleted in August 1941

[19squadron]

38 minutes ago, Pete Roberts said:

Based on posts from (the late) Edgar Brooks and info in the recent Richard Alexander Wingleader book, it appears these windows were introduced in (mid?) November 1940  and deleted in August 1941

Richard Alexander makes lots of mistakes, be careful about what he says. For example his first two Spitfire Kits offer aircraft profiles all later than june 1940, after which Airmin directives had ordered all aircraft fitted with de Havilland two speed props to be converted to constant speed props and one aircraft - Al Deere's Rotol CS N3180 which was issued with the Rotol and CS control , yet the kit offers only the early throttle quadrant without the CS control levers, but also has present the two speed push pull contol 

[19squadron]

 

 

Here is a pic of an aircraft originally fitted with a two-speed prop, with the two-speed push pull actuator removed, and instead the Constant Speed airscrew control fitted on the inside of the throttle quadrant with the CS de Havilland conversion prior to the BoB. All the aircraft profiled in the Kotare "mid" and Brian Lane kits should have this modification at the indicated dates for the profile, yet the kit has only the two-speed push pull. A very definite mistake by Kotare.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron
pic added

[rsanz]

10 hours ago, 19squadron said:

Richard Alexander makes lots of mistakes, be careful about what he says. For example his first two Spitfire Kits offer aircraft profiles all later than june 1940, after which Airmin directives had ordered all aircraft fitted with de Havilland two speed props to be converted to constant speed props and one aircraft - Al Deere's Rotol CS N3180 which was issued with the Rotol and CS control , yet the kit offers only the early throttle quadrant without the CS control levers, but also has present the two speed push pull contol 

 No. According to a 1943 Flight magazine article the variable speed conversions took place from 22 June to 2 August 1940.

[19squadron]

3 hours ago, rsanz said:

 No. According to a 1943 Flight magazine article the variable speed conversions took place from 22 June to 2 August 1940.

 

I am a bit confused by your post? Airmin records show twelve teams from De Havilland dispatched to all 12 Stations operating Spitfires on the 24th of june 1940. Work to all aircraft on those stations requiring conversion to Constant Speed props was completed within 10 days. That is to say all Spitfires in operational frontline squadrons were converted to Constant Speed propellors before the recognised date for the commencement of the Battle of Britain on 10 July 1940. Work to all Spitfires at MU's in store and at OTU's was completed by 16 august, as well as to all de Havilland equipped Hurricanes and Defiants.

 

Therefore it is an error in Kotare's Spitfire "mid" and the Brian Lane Special edition to omit the CS control levers on the throttle quadrant, and to include the Two Speed push pull lever on the kit which was removed on all converted aircraft for the dates given in the banner headline for ALL the aircraft profiles in both kits.

 

Attached is a photo of K9942 with Constant Speed prop conversion, showing the throttle quadrant with the CS levers and the absence of the two speed push-pull pitch control, which is how all Spitfires in front line squadrons would have looked from the first days july 1940 and before the commencement of the BoB.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron
addition of pic

[DonH]

55 minutes ago, 19squadron said:

 

Therefore it is an error in Kotare's Spitfire "mid" and the Brian Lane Special edition to omit the CS control levers on the throttle quadrant,

Now, that is interesting and I will do my own research. Since I am doing Al Deere's KL*B from May 1940, I guess the two speed lever is correct for the kit profile.

 

[19squadron]

32 minutes ago, DonH said:

Now, that is interesting and I will do my own research. Since I am doing Al Deere's KL*B from May 1940, I guess the two speed lever is correct for the kit profile.

 

The 2 Speed propellor push-pull in the Kotare kit is wrong in May 1940 for a Constant Speed Rotol equipped aircraft.

[Pete Roberts]

19 hours ago, 19squadron said:

Richard Alexander makes lots of mistakes

 

Thank you for the illuminating information on the props and their controls. Very helpful.

 

But I’m not sure about Richard making ‘lots’ of mistakes.

[19squadron]

1 hour ago, Pete Roberts said:

 

Thank you for the illuminating information on the props and their controls. Very helpful.

 

But I’m not sure about Richard making ‘lots’ of mistakes.

Oh there are lots of errors in the design of the Kotare Kit - have looked at the shape of the DeHavilland blade compared to a real blade? The kit blade is very poor, and so much else..

[Pete Roberts]

7 hours ago, 19squadron said:

Oh there are lots of errors in the design of the Kotare Kit - have looked at the shape of the DeHavilland blade compared to a real blade? The kit blade is very poor, and so much else..

 

It would be good to have a list of the errors you have found in the Kotare kit, so that we can make the necessary adjustments (if we so desire). Would you like to share your findings with us?

 

I am sure many would be interested, especially given the reception the kitset has received.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Pete Roberts

[Christa]

Yep, Pete can count me in for seeing details of Richard Alexander's 'lots' of Spitfire mistakes, whether or not anybody else wants to weigh those off against the significant contributions Richard has afforded our hobby. It would be interesting to learn how many decisions went into the design of Kotare's Spitfire releases, if such a running score was kept.

 

Our uncle Charlie served in 609. I have an envelope of his original photographs of his colleagues and the squadron's Spitfires, but sadly, none show cockpit controls nor propeller blade profiles.

[Tolga ULGUR]

If there are lots of errors (which I'm very surprised by), it would be good to see them as a list here. We've only learned about two so far. What is meant by ""lots of" should be more than two.

[DonH]

Yep, I would be interested in the list. However, if we are just talking about the throttle quadrant, I can fix that with a piece of plasticard and a blob of white glue. On the other hand, the Barracuda Revell MkII set has all the right bits, with a nice rendition of the gunsight, throttle quadrant and compass. My point being, if you are shelling out for this, there are a number of things you could use if you were so inclined.

 

Sorry, but I would like to see some evidence of the bad prop blade shape. I don't know either way, which is why evidence would be useful for me to see. I thought I was a Spitfire nerd, until I started digging into the evolution of the Mk I and realised I knew nothing. All help is gratefully received.

[19squadron]

2 hours ago, DonH said:

Yep, I would be interested in the list. However, if we are just talking about the throttle quadrant, I can fix that with a piece of plasticard and a blob of white glue. On the other hand, the Barracuda Revell MkII set has all the right bits, with a nice rendition of the gunsight, throttle quadrant and compass. My point being, if you are shelling out for this, there are a number of things you could use if you were so inclined.

 

Sorry, but I would like to see some evidence of the bad prop blade shape. I don't know either way, which is why evidence would be useful for me to see. I thought I was a Spitfire nerd, until I started digging into the evolution of the Mk I and realised I knew nothing. All help is gratefully received.

I am really surprised people have not picked up on some of the issues - the de Haviland prop form I would have thought was very obvious. The real thing [like a Spitfire] is just the most glorious shape, really exquisite, the kit part is really wrongly shaped and proportioned - dumpy honestly, but to illustrate that [I have a library of photos of original wartime blades] I have to photograph the kit part, and sufficiently well to illustrate the issues.