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P-61B Black Widow Help Please??


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Hi,

Im currently building the HobbyBoss 1/32 P-61B (With Corrections!) but am stuck!

 

I can’t find any info on the colours of the following areas and I’m reading to load up the airbrush!!

 

Cockpit

Rear Radar Operators Station

Underside Gun Bay

U/C Bays

Cowl Inner Faces

U/C Legs

 

Im going to do it as a 422nd NFS bird, now I know they were Black, and sources suggest High Gloss Black, is that right or is it actually Satin/Semi Matt??

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

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Photos appear to show the following:

 

Cockpit: Standard zinc chromate green

 

Rear Radar Station: Zinc chromate green

 

U/C Bays: Zinc Chromate green

 

Cowl Inner Faces: Black

 

U/C Legs: Natural metal

 

As for the exterior surfaces, pictures also seem to indicate something closer to a semi-gloss black, rather than a high gloss. The light just doesn't seem to bounce off of them in a high-gloss manner.

 

Hope this helps.

 

- Dennis S.

  Thornton, CO USA

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20 hours ago, Aviacom said:

Hi,

Im currently building the HobbyBoss 1/32 P-61B

 

 

Im not sure if it would interest you at all, but I do have an unused set of TD 1/32nd P-61 resin wheels I would sell at a decent price:

 

td_32018_title.jpg

 

 

 

PM me if interested 

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  • 8 months later...

Hi guys, first time back in over a year.  I have loads of source material on this aircraft and will help where I can.

Cockpit and radar operator's station were chromate green.  Wheel wells were yellow chromate. Engine compartment was green chromate.  Gun bays were yellow chromate.

 

"Black" widows were originally painted high gloss black.  This was because it was found harder to see at night than flat black.

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You are correct Jean-Michel.  I mis-posted.  They were originally flat black when made at the beginning.  The Army Air Corp had them repainted to resemble the standard color pattern of OD Green over Neutral Gray.  Later, when different color schemes were experimented with, it was found that high gloss black rendered the aircraft virtually invisible at night...  even with search lights pointed at it.  From then on they were painted high gloss black.  Many pilots have walked right into their planes claiming they couldn't see it.  

 

 

Edited by Night Fighter
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  • 2 months later...

I might be too late for this project, but some info regarding the interior zinc chromate.

 

During WWII, there were many companies and many factories sourcing components for aircraft.  It was quite common for these to have slight variations in the colors.  I recall reading an article on an A-6 Texan restoration not too many years ago, where "new old stock" components were sourced from some different places, and none of them had the same zinc chromate color on them.  Some were more green, some more yellow, some more faded, etc etc.  

 

While I believe, and it would make sense, that the entire interior area would be painted during assembly, these planes were treated in a very harsh utilitarian way during their service.  If a component in that cockpit needed to be changed, chances were at least fairly good that the replacement component might have a bit of a different color to it than the one it replaced.  Just food for thought, depending on the look you are going for.

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Hello Aviacom,

 

I found this old article extract from another modelling forum which provides useful information. I also found the same source information during my research into P-61 colours, so hopefully, it may offer some help and guidance to you:

 

One thing to remember, Northrop cheated on the use of primers.


*********************************
Greg L in California
Painting The P-61A

The archetypal Black Widow was gloss black overall, with red numbering and lettering, and blue and white national insignia. But other paint schemes were tried. Prototypes flown for stateside tests often were natural metal, sometimes with yellow cowlings. Early night camouflage attempts included dull black paint, but the high-gloss paint was found, in tests, to reflect rather than disperse searchlight beams, making it difficult for ground observers to detect when the beam was on the glossy plane. Early P-61A's were finished in olive drab upper surfaces with gray undersides before the characteristic gloss black was mandated. From July to September 1943, the national insignia was outlined in red. This scheme showed up on some of the camouflaged olive and gray P 61A's being built during that time period. After that time, the insignia was surrounded in the same dark blue as the field around the star. The Erection and Maintenance tech order-- the "Dash Two" manual-- for early P-61A aircraft specifies the following painting requirements for olive and gray P-61's:

"All aluminum and aluminum alloy surfaces shall be coated with two coats of zinc chromate primer, Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656, before receiving final paint finish, except when darkened zinc chromate primer is final finish, in which case darkened primer may be applied as a preliminary coat. No touch-up of primer is required prior to painting exterior finish."

"Insignias, numerals and markings shall conform to customer's requirements and engineering drawings. Diameter of all cocarde circles shall be 25 inches. Decalomanias or rubber (insoluble ink) stamps may be used for markings. All lettering shall be in insignia dull red, including radio call letters, shade No. 45 AAF bulletin No.41-A."

"Fabric covered surfaces shall be doped with clear nitrate dope and camouflage dope until desired tautness is obtained. The following doping procedure shall be followed for all fabric surfaces:

Three or more coats of clear nitrate dope by hand brush, Spec. No. AN-TT-D-514, and three or more coats by spray. One or more coats of pigmented dope, AAF Spec. No. 14106, No. 41 or 43 camouflaged dope to match surfaces as per AAF bulletin No. 41 A."

"All upper surfaces shall be camouflaged with one coat of dark olive enamel, AAF Spec. No. 14109 and all under surfaces shall be camouflaged with one coat of neutral gray, shade 43 (AAF 14109)."

"Insignia colors shall be dull finish and equivalent to the following shades:

Insignia White AAF 14109-A No. 46; Insignia Blue AAF 14109-A No. 47."

"Landing gear assemblies shall be left unpainted. No camouflage finish is required on the interior surfaces of the wheel wells."

"Insignia markings to be painted on metal surfaces only."

"Radio call letters to insignia red, shade No. 45, AAF bulletin No. 41-A. Radio call numbers shall be 12 inches high, * inches wide, 2 inch brush stroke. Location should be on aft outboard portion of nacelle boom and may extend on to movable vertical surfaces."

"All exposed interior surfaces of the gunner's, pilot's and radio operator's compartments shall be finished with Northrop Cockpit Green (12 oz. black camouflage enamel AAF 14109 to one gallon of zinc chromate primer Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656). [NOTE: This is simply Interior Green] This includes the seats and all other interior parts and surfaces except the instrument panels which will be dull black."

"Interior surfaces visible from the exterior shall be finished with one coat of dull enamel, AAF Spec. No. 14109, to match exterior surfaces."

"All unexposed interior surfaces of the gunner's, pilot's and radio operator's compartments, as between the flooring and the crew nacelle bottom, shall be coated with zinc chromate primer only, Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656."

"All exposed interior surfaces and parts of the turret compartment shall be finished with two coats of darkened (yellow-green) primer, Spec. No. 3-100-I. Unexposed interior surfaces of the turret compartment shall be finished with zinc chromate primer, Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656."

"All interior surfaces of the cannon compartment shall be finished with two coats of darkened primer (yellow-green), Spec. No. 3 100 I."

"All levers or handles, fuel and oil tank filler caps, and lubricating fittings shall have an identifying color corresponding to the particular marking color assigned to liquids or gases that they may control."

"The emergency latch and emergency enclosure release latch shall be given two coats of insignia full red lacquer."

"Steel armor plate shall be given one coat of zinc chromate primer, and finished to match the surrounding surfaces."

"The interior surface of aluminum cowling shall not be painted."

"Do not apply a paint coating to either side of the firewall..."

"The propeller(s) shall be sprayed with one coat of zinc chromate primer and finished with one coat of dull black lacquer, AAF Spec. No. 14105-B. The tips for a distance of 4 inches from the ends shall be painted with yellow lacquer, AAF Spec. 14105-B, in accordance with shade No. 48, AAF Bulletin No. 41-A."


The interior of the P-61 was not zinc chromate. The following is from the book "Darkly Dangerous" by Frederick A. Johnsen. The author's father, Carl M. Johnsen, worked in lofting for Northrop.

"All exposed interior surfaces of the gunner's, pilot's and radio operator's compartments shall be finished with Northrop Cockpit Green (12 oz. of black camouflage enamel AAF 14109 to one gallon of zinc chromate primer Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656). This includes the seats and all other interior parts and surfaces except the instrument panels which will be dull black. Interior surfaces visible from the exterior shall be finished with one coat of dull enamel, AAF Spec. No. 14109 to match exterior surfaces. All unexposed interior surfaces of the gunner's, pilot's and radio operator's compartments, as between the flooring and the crew nacelle bottom, shall be coated with zinc chromate primer only, Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656. All exposed interior surfaces and parts of the turret compartment shall be finished with two coats of darkened (yellow-green) primer, Spec. No. 3-100-I. Unexposed interior surfaces of the turret compartment shall be finished with zinc chromate primer, Spec. No. AN-TT-P-656. All interior surfaces of the cannon compartment shall be finished with two coats of darkened primer (yellow-green), Spec.No.3-100-I."

Your best bet for the interior color is Testor's Model Master Interior Green.


don f
post Today, 12:18 AM
Post #11

There is also evidence that later models, i.e., the P-61B, had Dull Dark Green cockpits. Take note that the darkened zinc chromate primer (yellow-green) specified below was not matched to a color specification. Yellow-green was a contractor mixed tinted zinc chromate primer made by mixing zinc chromate primer (the yellow color), black enamel paint and aluminum powder in a defined proportion. The resulting color was an olive green with considerable color variation expected. Dana Bell has discussed the history of tinted zinc chromate primers in lectures, articles and postings to Hyperscale. Yellow-green did evolve into ANA 611 Interior Green in ANA Bulletin No. 157.


Derek

 

 

 

 

 

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