Color of German Clear Doped Linen on WWI Aircraft

[Nicholas R Larson]

http://www.hobbyworld-usa.com/Store/index.php?id_product=4684&controller=product

 

http://www.hobbyworld-usa.com/Store/index.php?id_product=4685&controller=product

 

http://www.hobbyworld-usa.com/Store/index.php?id_product=4686&controller=product

 

Perhaps? Kinda, maybe?

[LSP_Mike]

     No, they are not inaccurate. They are interpretations of fabric made 101 years ago, in a variety of mills, under varying circumstances. That fabric was then applied to the A/C in question, under varying circumstances, and conditions, by men, and women of varying skill levels. Irish linen was the most prized for the high quality, the poms stopped that bit of business. The A/C was then "doped' using a product from a variety of manufacturers, under a loose set of guidelines, again by people with varying skill levels. THEN, it was subjected to a variety of conditions, and stained with mud, dirt, grime, oil, and gas. The dope was subject to photosynthesization, which caused it to yellow, again in varying degrees. And all of that for a plane with may have last 3 months, or 3 minutes at the front. And then scavenged, and the rest trashed. Please remember that on more than one occasion, A. Fokker was subject to contract suspensions, and penalties for poor manufacturing craftsmanship, or the lack of it. The Triplane wing failures being notable.

      My point is that it may be a mistake to try to be too dogmatic about this subject. Guys can't even define some of the WWII German colors, and they had much stricter guidelines; WWI? It is as much about interpretation, as color science. Mr Larson has very kindly provided links for color interpretations.... 3 of them. So, with the WNW guidelines, you have 5 samples  just for early war, Fokker CDL. Of course French CDL is completely different, and that is a separate rabbit hole.

      This is all without going into swapping parts off of planes to maintain squadron readiness quotas. 

[ringleheim]

     No, they are not inaccurate. They are interpretations of fabric made 101 years ago, in a variety of mills, under varying circumstances. That fabric was then applied to the A/C in question, under varying circumstances, and conditions, by men, and women of varying skill levels. Irish linen was the most prized for the high quality, the poms stopped that bit of business. The A/C was then "doped' using a product from a variety of manufacturers, under a loose set of guidelines, again by people with varying skill levels. THEN, it was subjected to a variety of conditions, and stained with mud, dirt, grime, oil, and gas. The dope was subject to photosynthesization, which caused it to yellow, again in varying degrees. And all of that for a plane with may have last 3 months, or 3 minutes at the front. And then scavenged, and the rest trashed. Please remember that on more than one occasion, A. Fokker was subject to contract suspensions, and penalties for poor manufacturing craftsmanship, or the lack of it. The Triplane wing failures being notable.

      My point is that it may be a mistake to try to be too dogmatic about this subject. Guys can't even define some of the WWII German colors, and they had much stricter guidelines; WWI? It is as much about interpretation, as color science. Mr Larson has very kindly provided links for color interpretations.... 3 of them. So, with the WNW guidelines, you have 5 samples  just for early war, Fokker CDL. Of course French CDL is completely different, and that is a separate rabbit hole.

      This is all without going into swapping parts off of planes to maintain squadron readiness quotas. 

 

Perhaps you missed the part where Dave from WNW pointed out that it is now believed that the Fokker Eindeckers (what I'm building and what was referenced in my original post) were not finished in CDL at all...but rather a variety of paint finishes including beige/tan paint known as "Fokker beige" whatever that might have been.

 

My comments were not directed towards someone's depiction of CDL being wrong as CDL...but rather, wrong for an Eindecker, as they were apparently not finished in CDL at all.

 

As to what CDL should look like, for an aircraft actually finished in that material, is a rather broad question, open to a lot of artistic license and interpretation.

[ringleheim]

http://www.hobbyworld-usa.com/Store/index.php?id_product=4684&controller=product

 

http://www.hobbyworld-usa.com/Store/index.php?id_product=4685&controller=product

 

http://www.hobbyworld-usa.com/Store/index.php?id_product=4686&controller=product

 

Perhaps? Kinda, maybe?

Those hues may or may not be correct for CDL, but that question is moot, as the Eindecker was apparently not finished in CDL...

 

See Dave's comments up-thread. 

 

Have any links to Fokker Beige paint?

[Zero77]

Just remember:

 

1. Each linen supplier had their own color.

2. Varnish coats could and did change the appearance.

3. Castor oil soaked everything, varying the color inch by inch.

4. The fabric wore poorly and showed immediate wear.

 

 

You can even add that depending of the manufacturer, the linen may has been more or less bleached.

 

 

I think there are hundreds of possibilities.

[Gerhard]

Cream or beige.

[RLWP]

You can even add that depending of the manufacturer, the linen may has been more or less bleached.

 

 

I think there are hundreds of possibilities.

 

Once upon a time, before the rise of the chemical industry, domestic servants would spread linen sheets out in the sun to bleach them

 

Aeroplanes have large areas of flat linen exposed to the sun for long periods of time

 

I'd say there were no two panels the same colour on these early aeroplanes...

 

I tend to lighten the colours I use on models so they are darkest on the bottom of the fuselage, lighter on the sides and lighter still on the top

 

Richard

Edited September 8, 2017 by RLWP

[LSP_K2]

Also XF-60 in the Enidecker manual is referred to as "Fokker Beige" not Clear Dope Linen.

 

Very good point, Dave. It may or may not be relevant, but the overwhelming majority of Fokker E series air-frames that I've seen depicted in various art forms over the years, is almost always a beige color, unlike the Pflaz E series color, as you also pointed out. I'd certainly go with beige, were I doing one of the early Fokker E's.

[Nicholas R Larson]

Those hues may or may not be correct for CDL, but that question is moot, as the Eindecker was apparently not finished in CDL...

 

See Dave's comments up-thread. 

 

Have any links to Fokker Beige paint?

 

No sir I don't have any links for Fokker Beige paint.  I just happen to be in that website purchasing RLM paint at the same time seeing CDL post and seeing CDL paint on that website.  Just thought I'd pass on the links to see if that would be of any help.

[ringleheim]

No sir I don't have any links for Fokker Beige paint.  I just happen to be in that website purchasing RLM paint at the same time seeing CDL post and seeing CDL paint on that website.  Just thought I'd pass on the links to see if that would be of any help.

 

Well thanks for posting the link.  As I understand it, several paint manufacturers have their versions of "CDL".

 

Looking at various responses up-thread, it is obvious people don't really read these threads in their entirety, so we are not really having a coherent conversation here! 

 

It doesn't help that actual WWI aircraft interest here seems fairly low.

[LSP_Mike]

I read the entire thread, and I thought we were actually having a conversation here. Are you trying to insult the members that have replied?