ghatherly

Luca, I could not disagree with you more. Prices are not honest or dishonest, people are and then only in regard to a agreed upon moral code. Dishonest selling is raising the price of items many times over their normal price of essential services or goods in an emergency situation like a pending hurricane or earthquake, etc thereby taking advantage of others forcing purchase at inflated prices under duress. That is what is dishonest and in the US and in most countries there are laws to prevent the practice as it is an awful thing to do. So you are right to be upset over dishonest pricing. That however is not the case here. Selling a non-essential item involving willing participants is normal business and normal human nature. How else does business exist without profit? It doesn’t. Whatever a person is willing to pay in a free exchange is not dishonest at all but completely fair and proper. If in that process prices take some buyers out of the market, so be it. Those buyers may be mad, but nether the seller or the buyer is dishonest. Sometimes sellers loose money on items too, and those loses have to be covered by profits on other items or the business fails. Meaning no disrespect for this simplified explaination, but this is how human commerce works. PS added the next day: There is nothing wrong with not being able to afford everything that one wants, be it by choice or economic circumstance. There is no shame in not being able to afford expensive things or in choosing not to buy based on the price. Very, Very few people in the world can buy anything one wants while the rest of us have to consider the price.

According to those in the know, ( Dave's friends). There were 54 made I am told, and a tone time I had 3 of them that were acquired through trades, purchase etc. Luca, be careful of the gossip surrounding these kits. They are more accurate than many want to give credit for. Yes, there are issues but not to the extent many gossip about on the forums. As to the price issue, Regular large production CE parts came back in line when companies offered similar and improved products at reasonable cost. I would ask you though to think seriously about your comment "it should be sold at an honest price". Weather you realize it or not you ar insulting people with such a comment and I don't think that is what you intended. Hoping for a lower price is fine, but the way you put really is not cool at all. Just because something is expensive, more than you can afford, more than you will pay... does not mean the price or the person is not being honest if that is where the market is. Most of us like Ferrari Autos, but how many here have one or can afford one? Does that high price they sell for make the seller dishonest? Look at the collector markets for cars airplanes, boats, art, etc? Art is great example of where $100 canvas and supplies can be worth millions if the right artist uses them. Markets are markets, and that is how capitalism works. Look at Warbirds. A P-51D Mustang cost the USAAF $18,400 in 1944. IN 1947 there were giving them away. Today they are worth millions.....see my point. As for a new kit, You cannot expect a company to do it for free or spend money just to keep the price low, as it is all relative. One thing I found on eBay is that sometimes sellers get the currency type mixed up and when it posts it is way higher than the market, then again in a bidding situation prices can get high if motivated buyers are involved.

You are exactly right in this assessment. I learned to draft with paper and pencils. Learning to draw on the computer down right sucks by comparison for me, but I am forcing myself to learn to do it as it is the future, but it is not easy at all....at least for me. For now I source my CAD work. As for the figures, what printer are you using? I still out source. I tried the FormLabs II a few years back and it could not handle a F-4 slatted outer wing that printed that shape ways could print with no issues. The formal rep tried to get it to work but finally gave up and said out stuff was to complicated. For these figures you are talking about, will they print as smooth surfaces free of layering? What printer will do this?

Hey Brian, that is great news. Had the same surgery back in 2003 with your results. Amazing how a little piece of hard tissue pressing on a nerve can be so painful and it's removal so dramatic. Glad to hear it!

BY the way Brian, how is your back doing? Off topic I know.

Yes you will see the CE set come down some, but really so few were made it may hold most of it's value as a collectors item. As for my estimate of a new set price, it ia based on hard numbers with no profit built in.

Ben, you explain things so well but express exactly what I am trying to say. You both are very, very right. IF I were a betting man I would have bet against it in agreement with you.

Dave, there was a good amount of sarcasm in the $50 price, as in the purpose of the thread. What I proposed was the set price we arrived a 3 years ago when doing the feasibility study for an F-4K/M conversion. It is not an arbitrary number and factored on no profit on 50 kits, it just covered costs. One hundred sets would be required to make money and there are not that many enthusiasts that would buy. These are the facts, not speculation. Having one of the manufacturers building in plastic is the only bet. The real question is will the distributors and large online shops buy them in quantity in the belief that they will sell. Kitty Hawk ran int this with the F-11 tiger project a few years back. Glenn was going to do the kit the Distributors and shops killed it. Please remember too that the original Wild Hare set was over $200 and that was 13 years ago. My point is that there are so few people who seriously want one, who each have a differing opinion as to correctness, and who have such a diversity in what they can afford or will pay. Now HPH seems to have found a niche with very high dollar production and special order kits like the C-47, B-36, and the B-52H. I am in for the B-52H kit at number 24 on the list and yes it is very expensive, but I want one and This is the only way to get one...so I pay. I would bet that HPH is not over 30 on the reservation list.

The short answer is3d printed parts cost 10 times that of Resin casting to start, and go up from there. Print time is a huge expense as it takes hours to do small parts in detail. The more detail the longer the time the higher the cost. This new tech is very useful for pattern making, but not cost effective for just parts. IF it were you would see Aires and Eduard going with printed parts and that has not happened.

I posted this to show how different each persons opinion is of a conversion. The 3D printed and multi media version you propose are not cheap, and may be more be costly than what I estimate for all resin. With each person wanting something different, and the varying opinions of what is right and what is not, no one is going to touch such a project as it would be suicide for whatever was produced. It would be too expensive, wrong shape, hard to build, etc. I guess what is needed is a complete plastic kit for $50. What maybe the cause of no F-4K/M yet from HK or anyone else is the protective customer base???? Just food for thought.

How does K/M sound? At least you were paying attention If nothing else is clear is that everyone has a different idea of what needs to be done. For this reason alone no one would dare do a kit. Too expensive if a kit is offered most modelers can build and too expensive for all but a very few. Those few already have the Wild Hare kit and most paid a bit to get it. I see that outside of HK releasing a kit or building a CE, that scratch building is the only way to ad one of these to you self. I would venture to say that even scratch building will have costs well above what you think they will be. Having an F-4K/M is not a cheap model no matter how you get it done.

I agree with all of you. The proposal is similar to what other companies have done. The best bet still is to build one from scratch. Even what Tony and Chek propose on the other thread is a $200 kit of which would require scratch bold skills to use. What I may do is make molds of what I make for my build and see where it leads as to price and ease of construction.

HI, research for the moment, but I have a serious question: Are there 50 of you that would buy the following conversion set at the price point listed. The set would not include decals and require parts from a Tamiya f-4J kit F-4K/M Conversion set made along the lines of the Wild Hare Set, but updated with a complete cockpit and other parts updates. Price for a 50 unit production would be $465.00 A $200 non- refundable deposit would be required, balance due on notification Delivery within 12 -18 months. As development would be done as part of my build.

NO worries, I figured that you did but many might not know, so I went off on a bit of a tangent. I have been really thinking the build through as I may not use any of the wild hare kit when I build mine. I would love to see your data if you would consider sharing it, as a trip to measure one is not in the cards for some time. Maybe coming to Telford one of these years but not any time soon. One thing I can say is that the cheapest way to get a UK bird is an updated version of the CE kit with a cockpit and any other corrections that can cost effectively be made. IF 50 could be sold the cost of the tooling, materials and production would lead to a sale price of $450.

Tony, if you can do the work you suggest then there would be no need for the simple items you suggest. Not looking to upset you here, but really if one can do the airframe work as you suggest, building a few add ons and an instrument panel are within ones skill set making the purchase of your suggested set a dead product. On a separate note, in all of your travels did you ever meet Kelly Johnson?