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ghatherly

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Everything posted by ghatherly

  1. Luca, I could not disagree with you more. Prices are not honest or dishonest, people are and then only in regard to a agreed upon moral code. Dishonest selling is raising the price of items many times over their normal price of essential services or goods in an emergency situation like a pending hurricane or earthquake, etc thereby taking advantage of others forcing purchase at inflated prices under duress. That is what is dishonest and in the US and in most countries there are laws to prevent the practice as it is an awful thing to do. So you are right to be upset over dishonest pricing. That however is not the case here. Selling a non-essential item involving willing participants is normal business and normal human nature. How else does business exist without profit? It doesn’t. Whatever a person is willing to pay in a free exchange is not dishonest at all but completely fair and proper. If in that process prices take some buyers out of the market, so be it. Those buyers may be mad, but nether the seller or the buyer is dishonest. Sometimes sellers loose money on items too, and those loses have to be covered by profits on other items or the business fails. Meaning no disrespect for this simplified explaination, but this is how human commerce works. PS added the next day: There is nothing wrong with not being able to afford everything that one wants, be it by choice or economic circumstance. There is no shame in not being able to afford expensive things or in choosing not to buy based on the price. Very, Very few people in the world can buy anything one wants while the rest of us have to consider the price.
  2. According to those in the know, ( Dave's friends). There were 54 made I am told, and a tone time I had 3 of them that were acquired through trades, purchase etc. Luca, be careful of the gossip surrounding these kits. They are more accurate than many want to give credit for. Yes, there are issues but not to the extent many gossip about on the forums. As to the price issue, Regular large production CE parts came back in line when companies offered similar and improved products at reasonable cost. I would ask you though to think seriously about your comment "it should be sold at an honest price". Weather you realize it or not you ar insulting people with such a comment and I don't think that is what you intended. Hoping for a lower price is fine, but the way you put really is not cool at all. Just because something is expensive, more than you can afford, more than you will pay... does not mean the price or the person is not being honest if that is where the market is. Most of us like Ferrari Autos, but how many here have one or can afford one? Does that high price they sell for make the seller dishonest? Look at the collector markets for cars airplanes, boats, art, etc? Art is great example of where $100 canvas and supplies can be worth millions if the right artist uses them. Markets are markets, and that is how capitalism works. Look at Warbirds. A P-51D Mustang cost the USAAF $18,400 in 1944. IN 1947 there were giving them away. Today they are worth millions.....see my point. As for a new kit, You cannot expect a company to do it for free or spend money just to keep the price low, as it is all relative. One thing I found on eBay is that sometimes sellers get the currency type mixed up and when it posts it is way higher than the market, then again in a bidding situation prices can get high if motivated buyers are involved.
  3. ghatherly

    F4K/M Phantom Conversion Thoughts

    You are exactly right in this assessment. I learned to draft with paper and pencils. Learning to draw on the computer down right sucks by comparison for me, but I am forcing myself to learn to do it as it is the future, but it is not easy at all....at least for me. For now I source my CAD work. As for the figures, what printer are you using? I still out source. I tried the FormLabs II a few years back and it could not handle a F-4 slatted outer wing that printed that shape ways could print with no issues. The formal rep tried to get it to work but finally gave up and said out stuff was to complicated. For these figures you are talking about, will they print as smooth surfaces free of layering? What printer will do this?
  4. HI, research for the moment, but I have a serious question: Are there 50 of you that would buy the following conversion set at the price point listed. The set would not include decals and require parts from a Tamiya f-4J kit F-4K/M Conversion set made along the lines of the Wild Hare Set, but updated with a complete cockpit and other parts updates. Price for a 50 unit production would be $465.00 A $200 non- refundable deposit would be required, balance due on notification Delivery within 12 -18 months. As development would be done as part of my build.
  5. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    Hey Brian, that is great news. Had the same surgery back in 2003 with your results. Amazing how a little piece of hard tissue pressing on a nerve can be so painful and it's removal so dramatic. Glad to hear it!
  6. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    BY the way Brian, how is your back doing? Off topic I know.
  7. Yes you will see the CE set come down some, but really so few were made it may hold most of it's value as a collectors item. As for my estimate of a new set price, it ia based on hard numbers with no profit built in.
  8. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    Ben, you explain things so well but express exactly what I am trying to say. You both are very, very right. IF I were a betting man I would have bet against it in agreement with you.
  9. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    Dave, there was a good amount of sarcasm in the $50 price, as in the purpose of the thread. What I proposed was the set price we arrived a 3 years ago when doing the feasibility study for an F-4K/M conversion. It is not an arbitrary number and factored on no profit on 50 kits, it just covered costs. One hundred sets would be required to make money and there are not that many enthusiasts that would buy. These are the facts, not speculation. Having one of the manufacturers building in plastic is the only bet. The real question is will the distributors and large online shops buy them in quantity in the belief that they will sell. Kitty Hawk ran int this with the F-11 tiger project a few years back. Glenn was going to do the kit the Distributors and shops killed it. Please remember too that the original Wild Hare set was over $200 and that was 13 years ago. My point is that there are so few people who seriously want one, who each have a differing opinion as to correctness, and who have such a diversity in what they can afford or will pay. Now HPH seems to have found a niche with very high dollar production and special order kits like the C-47, B-36, and the B-52H. I am in for the B-52H kit at number 24 on the list and yes it is very expensive, but I want one and This is the only way to get one...so I pay. I would bet that HPH is not over 30 on the reservation list.
  10. ghatherly

    F4K/M Phantom Conversion Thoughts

    The short answer is3d printed parts cost 10 times that of Resin casting to start, and go up from there. Print time is a huge expense as it takes hours to do small parts in detail. The more detail the longer the time the higher the cost. This new tech is very useful for pattern making, but not cost effective for just parts. IF it were you would see Aires and Eduard going with printed parts and that has not happened.
  11. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    I posted this to show how different each persons opinion is of a conversion. The 3D printed and multi media version you propose are not cheap, and may be more be costly than what I estimate for all resin. With each person wanting something different, and the varying opinions of what is right and what is not, no one is going to touch such a project as it would be suicide for whatever was produced. It would be too expensive, wrong shape, hard to build, etc. I guess what is needed is a complete plastic kit for $50. What maybe the cause of no F-4K/M yet from HK or anyone else is the protective customer base???? Just food for thought.
  12. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    How does K/M sound? At least you were paying attention If nothing else is clear is that everyone has a different idea of what needs to be done. For this reason alone no one would dare do a kit. Too expensive if a kit is offered most modelers can build and too expensive for all but a very few. Those few already have the Wild Hare kit and most paid a bit to get it. I see that outside of HK releasing a kit or building a CE, that scratch building is the only way to ad one of these to you self. I would venture to say that even scratch building will have costs well above what you think they will be. Having an F-4K/M is not a cheap model no matter how you get it done.
  13. ghatherly

    1/32 F-4K/M. Conversion Set for Tamiya F-4J

    I agree with all of you. The proposal is similar to what other companies have done. The best bet still is to build one from scratch. Even what Tony and Chek propose on the other thread is a $200 kit of which would require scratch bold skills to use. What I may do is make molds of what I make for my build and see where it leads as to price and ease of construction.
  14. NO worries, I figured that you did but many might not know, so I went off on a bit of a tangent. I have been really thinking the build through as I may not use any of the wild hare kit when I build mine. I would love to see your data if you would consider sharing it, as a trip to measure one is not in the cards for some time. Maybe coming to Telford one of these years but not any time soon. One thing I can say is that the cheapest way to get a UK bird is an updated version of the CE kit with a cockpit and any other corrections that can cost effectively be made. IF 50 could be sold the cost of the tooling, materials and production would lead to a sale price of $450.
  15. Tony, if you can do the work you suggest then there would be no need for the simple items you suggest. Not looking to upset you here, but really if one can do the airframe work as you suggest, building a few add ons and an instrument panel are within ones skill set making the purchase of your suggested set a dead product. On a separate note, in all of your travels did you ever meet Kelly Johnson?
  16. Sorry Ian to disagree, but the entire fuselage is wider than the GE powered J. Yes you could trim all the wing top as you suggest, but adding the extra width to the entire fuselage down the center of each engine section is a real skilled project not many would undertake. We are only talking inches but it is wider. Now if someone produces a kit that offers a few items as Tony suggests, we get back to the discussion of close vs exact in respect to details and correctness and this crowd would get rip it apart for not being accurate and keeping in the spirit of the UK jets. In my opinion, and I may be wrong, a no win situation for a company to produce. One of the major items Klaus changed that Frank never addressed is the wider fuselage. What you have is the extra width in the intake is carried trough all the way to the fan face. IF not there would be no point in widening the intake. In real world, Not widening the fuselage would also screw up the aerodynamic efficiency of the area rule shape. That is a critical equation with a tight design window, too much shape is almost as bad as not having shape at all. Think f-102 redesign here. Also, since the Spey is a larger diameter than the GE, you cannot create space on the inside of the airframe as there is the main structural fire wall that separates the engine bays. The GE was already so tight that bypass air had to by used to vent the heat from the engine bays out of the rear of the airframe. Hence, the entire airframe is wider.
  17. His wife wanted the business in an ugly divorce, so he killed it rather than hand it over to her and her family, most of which worked for him at CE.
  18. Yes he did, which is why I asked the original quest of Kag, who maybe right about the fan face. Have not had time to check the book pics he referenced, pages would help speed thing up Kag if you have them. I have all of the books, including Michael Burns book. All of the CE molds were destroyed when Klaus shut down the company. The way the company ended also released were all the intellectual property agreements under contract back to the pattern maker/ creator. It was DonLogan and the creator of the CE F-105 items that prompted me us to start GTR. Just a reproduction of the CE F-4L/M set with a full cockpit would be in that $500-$600 range with is not good for 99% of those wanting to build one. That is the price to be profitable and deliver a quality product not dealing with the decal issue or the toner kit. Then there are those that would pick it to death at the slightest perceived error as seems to be the norm now with every new release, regardless of the forum. We do this the least of any of the sites, but still it happens. The same goes for a F4H-1 set. I would bet the that HK bit off amore than expected, so we should be patient since no on has skim in the game.
  19. Did you read Dave Klaus's notes at the end of the link you posted above? He confirms the accuracy of Frank's build and that it was not in error nearly as much as Frank thought it was.
  20. Just as I suspected, gossip.
  21. Is this gossip or first hand measuring them?
  22. Thx for the kind remark on F-4B/N Set. The on thing that seems to be consistent is change, and with improved 3D printing we can look for better stuff. What many fail to understand is that creating the parts in a computer is also very time consuming, in fact sometimes more so than sitting down at the bench with plastic stock and building the pattern from scratch. A couple of items to mention is that eventually we will see a 1/32 F-4 Series from ZM, but I can tell you that a Brit Phantom is at the end of the list. One thing to be tankful for is that Tamiya did such a great job with their 1/32 jet line, that some 20-30 years after release which we find ourselves at now, these are still first rate kits. It will take a tremendous product to improve that line whether it be F-4, F-14, F-15, F-16 as seen in the latest Mosquito and Corsair kits. We looked at producing a set a few years back and it was economically unfeasible in a format that most modelers could build. Not to mention that decals that do exist outside of Dave Klaus's set. It was just too expensive, like nearing $800 per conversion set. Our Target UK kit was along the lines of the CE set, but with a full cockpit set. The UK birds while similar are really a completely different airframe from the other Phantoms. Making it is not a matter of changing a few parts as we have done for the Tamiya kits with the F-4B/N, F-4S, or F-4G Super sets. Everything about the UK Phantom outside fo the forward crew section is different. to accommodate the Spey engine and to operate on such small carriers. The news for HK is encouraging as we man still see one form them.
  23. CE reigned supreme because there was nothing else around, not because they were correct. The F-4B set is mostly errors, the F-16XL is a joke, and theF4K/M is not all that great but since it was based Frank's build it turned out the best of the Wild Hare offerings. Don't know about the f4H-1 conversion as I have never seen one, but the scratch work to convert a stock kit is not overwhelming by any means, with the canopy the biggest challenge if done in resin. Printing in clear plastic looks promising. The CE F-4K/M can be built and turns out very nice. Because of the value of my CE set, I have decided to do a scratch build for 90% of my Brit F-4 build vs using it. May use the intakes, Spey's will be new CAD 3D prints, snd the rest all new parts. May print out new intakes too. Thierry is to kind about the Spey's in the CE Set. Those Spey's are terrible with have no interior detail while the nozzle can be greatly improved with current methods.
  24. Ray, both of your posts are right on the money..... Cash or in Some cases the lack of it. Profitable CASH FLOW is the lifeblood of any company, and not having enough, even with the best designs and the best projects bring things to a screeching halt. The Lancaster issue may be such an issue here as sone have mentioned. I know many have questioned me when I share what it costs to bring our products to market at the large amounts, producing an injection kit is in another league. We started out doing what everyone wanted, but as it turned out half of them were financial looser, 3/8 broke even and 1/8 made real money. A few have exceed our wildest dreams, the F-4B Super set comes to mind. IF someone wold have told me 6 years ago we would have made and sold close to 600 kits, I would have asked what they were smoking/Drinking, but we have. You mentioned ZM. Both they and Wnw have been very successful. The reason is big time capital investment behind each one at startup, strict discipline in operating, and clear product branding in the marketplace. ZM has investment from the Doll business and Wnw from a wealthy owner who is a businessman. In both cases they set sup professional companies, hired the best in-house people, used consultants effectively, and were able together it right from the beginning by focusing on a particular area of interest and creating BRANDS. In the case of ZM, the decision to release the F-4 in 1/48 I am sure was to generate profitable cash flow for the 1/32 F-4 and other projects. I would GUESS, as I don''t know, that budget limits and consumption of it were the reason for the pause in the FW-190 project. IT is a huge project with what 7-10 kits??? Once the original budget was used, the project may have been put on hold until cash was available to re-start in that project. Now this is PURELY just my speculation but knowing the costs involved it is a logical conclusion. It is easy to get negative in operating any business. IF money is an issue, things don't go well, you are isolated away and maybe have no others to share with, things can go down hill very fast. That is a whole other topic for another time. Ya'll have a great night. I am getting really close to finishing up my Tamiya F-4G build so back to the shop. GH
  25. As we transition form Direct sales to sale through Sprue Brothers, it will take some time to get SB stocked with entire line. To start with our most popular items are being carried with new items and restocks taking place every few days. Here is a link to SB: http://store.spruebrothers.com/category_s/2703.htm http://store.spruebrothers.com/category_s/2361.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=2361&show=60&page=1&brand=GT Resin
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