Mr.Hobby woes

[Hardcore]

I got my Gunze Luftwaffe colors yesterday but am not sure i have reason to be totally happy🙀

Look at the pictures below and tell me if RLM81 and RLM 83 really should be that similar.

 

 

 

 

 

[mozart]

For what it's worth, they're very similar with Vallejo Model Air too: RLM81 is described as "Tank Green" (71011) and RLM83 as "Olive Drab" (71043).

Max

[Zero77]

It's hard to say as the light may change the perception, as in your last picture (where they look green, while they look more olive drab like on the other pictures).

 

Here are pictures of my He162, and it's painted with gunze RLM81 and 83, and even if they are pretty close (at least more than with RLM82) the difference seems to be a bit more obvious.

 

 

But your samples are brush painted, and an airbrush painted sample may also look different.

 

Actually, it seems that RLM83 doesn't really exist, or must be a blue-green used for sea camos. But in the late war, there was significant variations in the colors, so i simply use the RLM83 as a darker RLM82.

[Radub]

The Gunze 81 and 83 are extremely close, but the difference is quite subtle. 

As for what was the correct shade... The old Monogram book on Luftwaffe camouflages has a lot of paint samples for what technically should be "the same paint" and they vary a lot. 

Radu 

[LSP_K2]

Interesting. I'll be using one or the other (not real sure which right now), on a 1:72 Me 262 I'm trying to finish up.

[Hardcore]

Thank you guys! It could have been a fabrication error, but if your paints are close match too I figure it is all right. If a bit strange.

[RBrown]

According to Michael Ullmann, who has authored a book on Luftwaffe colors, RLM 83 has been misidentified, it was not used as a late war color in conjunction with RLM 82 or RLM 81.  To make a long story short,  the color commonly thought to be RLM 83 is actually a variation of RLM 81. According to Ullmann's research,  RLM 83 was a dark blue color intended for upper surface camouflage in conjunction with RLM 71 on aircraft operating over the Mediterranean.  

Edited February 27, 2015 by RBrown

[Radub]

According to Michael Ullmann, who has authored a book on Luftwaffe colors, RLM 83 has been misidentified, it was not used as a late war color in conjunction with RLM 82 or RLM 81.  To make a long story short,  the color commonly thought to be RLM 83 is actually a variation of RLM 81. According to Ullmann's research,  RLM 83 was a dark blue color intended for upper surface camouflage in conjunction with RLM 71 on aircraft operating over the Mediterranean.

 

 

I think that there may be a "flaw" in the "RLM 83 was a dark blue hypothesis": there is no photographic evidence. At the end of the war, the Allies photographed a lot of abandoned and captured Luftwaffe planes (seaplanes too) in colur. I am not aware of a single colour photo of a late-war seaplane painted dark blue. But there are plenty of photos of planes painted in the so-called "late war colours". Whatever that was called, there was a dark green used alongside the light green and a brown. I saw it on preserved museum pieces with my own eyes. So... That "late war dark green" is real. See this also: http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/07/01/luftwaffe-paints-new-discoveries/

Radu

[thierry laurent]

Eh,eh, not so simple!

Here is a rlm83/rlm 65 float artefact from a Bv138. Look at the colour:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5334/6934009822_f1d17a46b5_b.jpg

So, there is even more than photographic evidence!

Add to this the documents found by Micheal Ullman and I think that we have grounds to consider that this part of the mistery has been solved.

For instance look here:
Http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/10/07/63/16/rlm_8310.jpg

The fact that there were colour similar but not identical to the late dark greens formally identified (81/82) is another matter. However, this does not demonstrate that 83 was a dark green. Btw, the problem is similar for the infamous rlm84!

Some colours or variants of existing colours were used. They are enough pictures or war artefacts to prove it. However, we still do not know how they were formally referenced.

CONCLUSION: Is this a terrible problem? Surely not as globally, even if we do not know the name of specific colours we know they were used. So, don't call it 83 but a variant of a known one and paint is a such!



Hth

Thierry

[mozart]

Or it could be something as basic as in the mounting chaos towards the close of the war, when stocks of paint (like many other things) could well have been running low, in the field especially their own concoctions or approximations to the "correct" colour were used.

Max

[RBrown]

....But there are plenty of photos of planes painted in the so-called "late war colours". Whatever that was called, there was a dark green used alongside the light green and a brown. I saw it on preserved museum pieces with my own eyes. So... That "late war dark green" is real. See this also: http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/07/01/luftwaffe-paints-new-discoveries/

Radu

Yes, but in addition to variations of 81/82 there were stocks of 70/71 that were also employed.  This could explain the dark olive /dark green observations of late war aircraft.  My understanding of Ullmann's premise is that 81/82 were developed to replace 70/71 because the latter colors experienced a shift from green to grey  when exposed to light over time, reducing their effectiveness as camouflage.  The new colors were extensively tested for light resistance and adopted initially in conjunction with stocks of 70/71 and subsequently as an 81/82 combination. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by RBrown

[Zero77]

I think that there may be a "flaw" in the "RLM 83 was a dark blue hypothesis": there is no photographic evidence. At the end of the war, the Allies photographed a lot of abandoned and captured Luftwaffe planes (seaplanes too) in colur. I am not aware of a single colour photo of a late-war seaplane painted dark blue. But there are plenty of photos of planes painted in the so-called "late war colours". Whatever that was called, there was a dark green used alongside the light green and a brown. I saw it on preserved museum pieces with my own eyes. So... That "late war dark green" is real. See this also: http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/07/01/luftwaffe-paints-new-discoveries/

Radu

 

 

There is no evidence of RLM83 as a fighter scheme color in the german documentation either. The "late war dark green" do exist indeed, but it can be a poorly made RLM82.

Even the color names were different from a manufacturer to the another, for instance, RLM81 was called "violet brown" at Messerschmidt and "Dark Green" at Heinkel (not sure for the manufacturer's identities, but that's the idea).

[Radub]

I "have no dog in this fight" and I am willing to accept the best-argumented explanation. 

However, the document linked by Thierry http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/10/07/63/16/rlm_8310.jpgis not as clear as it seems. First of all, it says that in November 1943, a "dark blue RLM 83" colour was tested as follows: 

- in conjunction with RLM 72  for seaplanes

- in conjunction with RLM 70 (strangely, described as "dark green" rather than "black green") for land planes. 

Now, here is the 500-pound gorilla: Does anyone have a single photo of a "black green and dark blue" Bf 109 or FW 190? 

It is known that in the summer of 1943 there was a circular that announced that in August 1944 a number of colours were going to be discontinued and new colours introduced. What if this document is just proof that the RLM was attempting to find suitable replacements for the existing paints and this was just a test that did not go past the test stage? We already know that there were other colours tested by Luftwaffe and never introduced. I am not saying that the "RLM 83 dark blue" is incorrect, I am just saying that we need more evidence. 

Radu 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Radub

[thierry laurent]

Agreed Radu! I've nothing to defend either!

There is just some commonality between different documents found by Micheal Ullman and artefacts in museum.

 

...and we have no factual proof that RLM83 was a dark green and this was our initial topic!

 

It is clear that the final story is not yet written but as I wrote, as far as we can replicate what pictures and artefacts demonstrate, the reference is not a terrible issue!

[RBrown]

I came across a 1976 account of Joachim Siebers, formerly of KG 76, describing blue Ju 88s in Italy.   Acknowledging the frailty of human memory,  Sieber's recollection can't be considered conclusive but it is interesting.  The following text is quoted from page  91 of Merrick's Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945:

 

"Unfortunately I cannot give you exact details of the blue colour.  Was it Blue 24?  As before, I would describe it as a dark 'Royal Blue'." 

 

Sieber states the aircraft were factory painted and destined for field workshops for application of wave-mirror camouflage.   So there is evidence, although inconclusive, of dark blue Ju 88s in the Mediterranean.  Could this be an example of the elusive RLM 83?

Edited April 12, 2015 by RBrown