1:32 Intruder Decals

[thierry laurent]

Hi,

 

Some remarks:

 

After a thorough assessment I agree that the decal is not fully correct. However, keep in mind that one picture does not summarize more or less 15 years of use of this high-viz marking scheme! Moreover, this picture shows a later Nimitz bird. As I wrote previously, there were various subtle variants of the Panther. If you just consider the seventies era, a comparison of 1970 and 1979 pictures of Oceana birds already show some differences (location on tail and head shape details). According to an old Squadron book, there was even a variant with a rattlesnake in the Panther mouth! So, I'd look for reference at one 60's SEA period picture of the correct Enterprise/Coral Sea/America cruise rather than using one of the seventies. Unfortunately, good reference pictures of all the Vietnam era VA-35 cruises are not numerous. I don't know which picture or profile was used as a reference but according to the picture, some head details may be misunderstood ot incorrectly depicted for sure. I checked dozens of printed and digital pictures of VA-35 planes. So believe-me: there WERE differences.

 

Nonetheless, the thing that puzzled me is the tail as I could not find ONE picture with this lion type! So, I wondered why some profiles had such an error. I possibly found the explanation in the FAOW booklet: some planes had the Panther tail end on the border of the plane tail antenna. When you look at the tail from the front of the plane, the fold in the Panther tail gives the visual illusion that the end is thicker. I don't know if I'm right but this may explain this odd discrepancy.

 

Conclusion: I understand the possibility of slight errors in the head details or shape but the tail error is stupid as this does not correspond to any period!

 

With regard to the seat, it is very difficult to know when the seat type changed. I think this may be earlier than discussed. So, I'd not blame Trumpeter for this. We've the same problem with the Mk5 on the F-4B. Note the Squadron walkaround gives excellent TM views of both types of GRU seats. This immediately shows that there were few visible differences in the headset. So, it is nearly impossible to see the difference without having a good interior view... Good luck!

 

At last, all published references gives good info about the E whereas few of them detail the A (this is even worse for the B or C). This is not surprising as most Intruder airframes were upgraded to later marks. Consequently, I understand they had difficulties to find the A idiosyncrasies! Fortunately, forums such as LSP ones will help in correcting such errors.

 

Cheers.

 

Thierry

[wwesley]

I'm not even going to start mine until I get the right seats to do a Vietnam era operational a/c.

 

It's unlikely that even the Linebacker Intruder As had the newer seats, so I guess we just have to wait....

 

Arrgh.

 

Tim W.

As for seat I spent 10 years in Intruder/Prowler ejection seat maint. The A-6A first had Martin Baker Gru5 seats. Around 1966-67 those seats were replaced with Martin Baker Gru7 seats. You can use any 32nd F-14 seats and get away with it. The resin seats look like the correct seats. In real F-14 seats they are MB Gru7A/B seats. They look close enough to use. Several years ago I sent Jeff at Black Box some copies of some Intruder maint manuals and tech school books on the Intruder cockpit and seats. We will have to see what they and Aires produce.

[thierry laurent]

Interesting!

 

This corresponds to the information I got many years ago. The seat retrofit program seemingly started around 1966 to end around 1973 for the very last replacements. Accordingly, I'd not hold my breath for a GRU-5 seat unless the modeller really wants to depict one Alpha mark at the very beginning of the Vietnam war. Moreover, the published documentation related to such seat retrofit programs is nearly nil. As I wrote previously, the problem is the same for the early Phantoms. So, knowing for sure when this batch of planes or this specific unit got retrofitted planes is nearly impossible without getting the info from the concerned workshops and I'm not even sure the information still exist somewhere...

 

My two cents.

[TimW]

As for seat I spent 10 years in Intruder/Prowler ejection seat maint. The A-6A first had Martin Baker Gru5 seats. Around 1966-67 those seats were replaced with Martin Baker Gru7 seats. You can use any 32nd F-14 seats and get away with it. The resin seats look like the correct seats. In real F-14 seats they are MB Gru7A/B seats. They look close enough to use. Several years ago I sent Jeff at Black Box some copies of some Intruder maint manuals and tech school books on the Intruder cockpit and seats. We will have to see what they and Aires produce.

Very interesting and useful info--

 

I had heard that the seat upgrade happened from 1972 on; this does not appear to have been the case based on your info, so no problem after all (unless one is doing a really early "A," I suppose).

 

Thanks again!

 

Tim W.

[Tony T]

The original GRU-5 was upgraded with the zero-zero rocket pack to create the 'GRU-7' from late 1967. The later ca.1970+ production Tomcat/Intruder/Prowler GRU-7 family differed as can be seen in the pics in the next post.

 

This is the GRU-5 seat from a 1975 A-6 flight manual

 

 

It's not that different from the Trumpeter Intruder/Tomcat GRU-7, although notice the metal extends outwards more on the seat sides. Not sure if that went when the Intruder GRU-5s were converted to GRU-7 standard ca.67-69 or thereabouts. One fixer explained that the 'GRU-5-style' seat was in use until 1975. We're talking about appearances, not seat capability per se. The seats were smooth with little perforations, rather than ribbed, and the seatback and seat were orange-coloured, not green as in the later ribbed style.

 

HTH

 

Tony T

Edited August 14, 2013 by Tony T

[Tony T]

And the all-up GRU-7 as used in the A-6 family, specified by AFC 119 in July 1972:

 

 

 

I think the mod is doable with some filler and plastic card. I have yet to see a picture of the converted GRU-5-to-GRU-7 however.

 

HTH

 

Tony T

Edited August 14, 2013 by Tony T

[Showtime 100]

Great reference pics!

 

 

Thanks for sharing.

[petrov27]

this is great info and thanks for the pics of the seat!

[thierry laurent]

Thanks Tony,

 

I just saw you explanation about AFC119 in the wing thread. However, as you wrote here, there are clues demonstrating that the change started long before. This corresponds to the information I got many years ago from A-6 mechs. This also agrees with the post from Tim Wesley.

The lack of explanation about the difference between the GR7 types as used in the later Intruder, Prowler and Tomcat and the upgraded GR5 probably explains the confusing information we got here and there.

 

The problem we've now is the visible difference between the upgraded GR5 to 7 standards and the actual GR7! If the upgrade did not result in really visible differences, the modeller would have to convert the seats into "GR5"-like ones! Otherwise, if the upgrade resulted in GR7-like seats, using the kit or current resin ones would be the solution... Except the parachute pack side difference (which BTW looks very similar to the MB Mk5-Mk7 one in the Phantoms), the main visible difference for a seat put in a pit lies in the cushion type. However, without more information, I'm not so sure the cushion type was changed when the upgrade was done!

 

I hope someone as Tim can give us definite info about this aspect.

 

Tricky topic...!

[Tony T]

Hi Thierry,

 

I think we're over-egging the cake a bit, me included.

 

The best approach path is GRU-5 seat (whether ot not it actually had the zero-zero rocket pack) for 1965-1972, and then the GRU-7 thereafter.

 

The only wacky component is the 'cushion' colouring: orange-red or green? The later ribbed variety were green, but the earlier ones were horribly brighter in colour, and that was something I was in denial about for a long time:

 

 

poached from t'interweb, but it explains it all.

 

Tony T

[petrov27]

Not sure what decals are being planned by the big decal makers, but I have done some for a couple VA-196 Vietnam birds - if you have the Osprey title A-6 Intruder Units of the Vietnam War these would be the cover art aircraft as well as color profile #21 - if there is any interest in these please let me know and I will see about doing a run of them for folks.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2013 by petrov27

[P Stoner]

Sweet!!!! I can be the first to say they look very clean, count me in

 

 

Paul

[phantom]

If I were to go out and buy an AM seat, which one would I buy, which one is the most accurate? I am starting to collect my AM for my build.

 

Happy Modeling

 

Mike

[P Stoner]

The Black box or "Avionix" is the best choice I think. I posted some pictures of that and Quickboost on my WIP.

 

Paul

[Kagemusha]

Steel-Beach are going to produce a KA-6D conversion, and while searching t'web came across this site full of Intruder photos http://www.millionmonkeytheater.com/A-6.html