A question about foiling

[LSP_Kevin]

Here's an example of what I mean:

 

 

This is the result after following all of Brian's advice!

 

 

Just can't seem to get rid of those glue streaks.

 

Kev

[LSP_Kevin]

I just wanted to revisit this topic briefly with some more questions, as I'm really struggling to get on top of this foiling stuff. I've improved the situation somewhat with regard to the glue streaks. Firstly, I thin the adhesive slightly by applying it with a wet brush. I then trowel it back and forth multiple times with the spreader, each time smoothing it out just that little bit more. Lastly, I turn my overhead lamp off, as I suspect this was a factor in causing the glue to dry too quickly in lumps.

 

So, while all those things have helped, the glue application is still not perfect, and the main issue seems to be that I'm applying the glue to the shiny side of the foil in order to use the dull side on the model. Being so shiny and smooth, the glue just keeps beading up. Brian, how do you deal with this?

 

Kev

[Out2gtcha]

I just wanted to revisit this topic briefly with some more questions, as I'm really struggling to get on top of this foiling stuff. I've improved the situation somewhat with regard to the glue streaks. Firstly, I thin the adhesive slightly by applying it with a wet brush. I then trowel it back and forth multiple times with the spreader, each time smoothing it out just that little bit more. Lastly, I turn my overhead lamp off, as I suspect this was a factor in causing the glue to dry too quickly in lumps.

 

So, while all those things have helped, the glue application is still not perfect, and the main issue seems to be that I'm applying the glue to the shiny side of the foil in order to use the dull side on the model. Being so shiny and smooth, the glue just keeps beading up. Brian, how do you deal with this?

 

Kev

 

One of the probs might be Kev that the side you are using is not clean enough. I also use latex gloves as weird as it sounds it keeps fingerprints and oils off the foil while your handling it. Takes some getting used to but worth it. You can actually use either side of the foil for gluing. The shiney side of the foil is MUCH more smooth and may take a bit of graining THEN cleaning to get the glue to stick.

 

The foil glue is similar to paint; it benefits from a surface that is "keyed" ever so slightly to give the paint, or in this case the glue a surface to hold to and not bead up. Just remember to CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN it after that.

 

Just as an experiment Kev I might try using the glue on the dull side. If it sticks you can use 600 grit sand paper or even a harsh cleaning toothpaste like Crest Pro Health or even XXXX steel wool to grain the foil on the other side, for the look you want. As I said previous, you can also use very fine sandpaper to grain the shiny side to give the glue some bite.

 

You definitely dont have to use the dull side out. I use ALL different brands, thicknesses, and sides to all foils. I just make them look different by the different graining treatments and the chemical processes.

 

If you continue to have issues with beading, I might even suggest as an experiment to grain the shiny side of the foil THEN clean the crap out of it with 91% (NOT 70%) alcohol, then try to apply the glue again.

 

Also remember when your cutting out your piece of foil to work on to try and keep the direction of your pull with teh spreader (or even a brush if thats what your using) with the direction of graining you just applied. OR, if its visible to see the direction of the grain on reference pics to match that, as well as putting different grains of foil next to each other to bring individual panels out.

 

Another thing you may want to watch or make sure your doing is if your using the bondo spreader method, make sure your only pulling the glue bead in ONE direction and not back and forth. The back and forth motion tends to make the glue dry quicker, and get lumpy and streaky as it pulls back over itself. Id say also to pay close attention to the edge of the spreader as well, and take a smooth sanding stick or whatever is needed to ensure there are no gouges, nicks or cracks in that edge, as that is what is making sure you have a steak free(ish) surface.

 

Brian

[LSP_Ron]

I also use latex gloves as weird as it sounds it keeps fingerprints and oils off the foil while your handling it.

Brian

 

Brian, is that you?

 

[Pfuf]

just cut little square peace 100/100 MM and stick this on a paper so you can easily spray over the edge. (the dull side up)

 

Then use your airbrush spray the glue if it's to thick and it is use water to get a good airbrush mix I mix it in the airbrush cup.

 

Try to spray a very fine layer almost like dust this needs to dry first to build a layer.

 

after this you can airbrush a thicker coating you know when it is to thick it will form drops and you need to stop these stripes and drops show up.

 

after drying you get the peaces and stick them on the inside of the kit box so no dust will get on it and just cut little peaces you need.

[LSP_Kevin]

Thanks for your input Brian. I'm definitely cleaning the foil (with either white spirit or metho) prior to applying the glue. Fingerprints are an issue for me though, as I have oily (as opposed to sweaty) hands. I've taken to wearing latex gloves when handling the model to apply the foil, rather than when applying the glue. I don't think that's a big issue though; I think main problem is just the sheer shininess of the foil causing the glue to bead up. I will confess to using super cheap, super thin kitchen foil, and am having issues with wrinkling and tearing as well. I think I just need to experiment a bit more to find out what works for me. Prolly need to try a few different foils too.

 

I've got the thing about half covered now (taken me over a week just to get that far!), but I'll post some photos of the result when I get it all done.

 

Kev

[Out2gtcha]

Thanks for your input Brian. I'm definitely cleaning the foil (with either white spirit or metho) prior to applying the glue. Fingerprints are an issue for me though, as I have oily (as opposed to sweaty) hands. I've taken to wearing latex gloves when handling the model to apply the foil, rather than when applying the glue. I don't think that's a big issue though; I think main problem is just the sheer shininess of the foil causing the glue to bead up. I will confess to using super cheap, super thin kitchen foil, and am having issues with wrinkling and tearing as well. I think I just need to experiment a bit more to find out what works for me. Prolly need to try a few different foils too.

 

I've got the thing about half covered now (taken me over a week just to get that far!), but I'll post some photos of the result when I get it all done.

 

Kev

 

Yep yep, try and get yourself a roll of the thickest strongest foil you can and grain the shiny side, clean it and try to apply glue to it to see if you see a reduction in the beading.

 

Brian

[TonyT]

I have some self adhesive foil, they use it to mask windows etc on aircraft when they strip them for painting, to stop the stuff getting on plastics or sealants, it is abou the same thickness as the kitchen variety, if not a little thinner.

[MikeMaben]

If the glue is water soluble, try a smidge of dishsoap in it to break the surface tension (beading).

Worth a try

[Out2gtcha]

If the glue is water soluble, try a smidge of dishsoap in it to break the surface tension (beading).

Worth a try

 

Might be worth a shot......just not too much to avoid getting any soap generated bubbles drying in form. They also make a surface tension breaking liquid sold at garden centers to aid in the application of water based herbicides.

 

Brian

[Neo]

Here's an example of what I mean:

 

 

This is the result after following all of Brian's advice!

 

 

Just can't seem to get rid of those glue streaks.

 

Kev

 

Ive had this problem before on my current B-25 and there no way to get rid of it(apart from ripping it off and restarting)

(see wing tip)

 

it is cause by you glue application

 

-Put foil mat side UP and clean using rubbing alchool

-Apply glue with brush MAKE SURE ITS EVEN make multiple passes as the glue tends to make little pools (as seen in pic its fine)

 

when you do single pass with the brush the glue will ten to have the kind of pattern that we see on you pic. if you do several passes in different direction you get like the pic i placed above so when it dries it loos like this

 

-wait until glue as dried to clear

 

Hope this helps

 

Neo

[LSP_Kevin]

Well, my first attempt at foiling has come to a merciful end. It looks like a disaster quite frankly, and has taken me 3 weeks to do! I've learned a few things along the way, and haven't yet been completely put off having another go. I'll definitely be choosing my next subject more wisely though, as the MiG-15 has all kinds of features I had trouble dealing with, most especially the wing strakes. I also had a lot of trouble with the foil lifting at trailing edges - especially during handling. And when you're foiling a model, you have to handle the heck out of it! (I broke and re-glued the dorsal antenna countless times before giving up on it.) So, I've learned that it's best to wrap foil around trailing edges whenever you can, rather than do separate tops and bottoms.

 

Anyway, the batteries in my camera died, and devoid of spares at the moment, I had to resort to my iPhone for some very unflattering shots:

 

 

 

 

 

In the second-last shot you can see where some of the foil has torn away from the trailing edge at the rear of the inner wing strake. My glue application technique did improve during the process, so that's something at least. I'm just going to slap the decals on, give it an oil wash and install all the fiddly bits and then call it done. I'll put some better shots in RFI at that point.

 

Thanks everyone for their help, advice and input on this whole foiling caper.

 

Kev

[Out2gtcha]

Hmmm Kev, cant see all your posted images?

 

Seems I can only see one..........top view.

Ah ok, EDITed............they just took a min or three to show up!

 

Doesnt seem to look too bad though. Especially for a first time mate! I had similar results on my 48th A-7 I did my first time, so dont get discouraged. The only thing I might suggest for next try is experimenting laying the foil down with dull side out...........OR with graining the exposed side so the shininess is toned down a bit. Or both.

 

Other than that its looking good man..........really. Like you said, as long as your improving, it only gets better fro here on out. Especially when you start finding techniques that work best specifically for you.

 

Cheers and keep goin!

Brian

[LSP_Kevin]

Thanks for the encouragement Brian, much appreciated!

 

The only thing I might suggest for next try is experimenting laying the foil down with dull side out

 

Ah, but that is the dull side Brian! You should see how shiny the shiny side is. But as I've said all along, I suspect that extreme chrome-like shininess is the reason I've had so much trouble with the gluing process; the glue just wants to bead up and dry lumpy. Even my oil wash wouldn't grip the foil at all, and nearly all of it came off when I wiped off the excess. It did slightly dull the shine though, and added nicely to the naturally organic patina inherent in the foil. And the port aircraft number decal actually fell off the model while I was looking at it! It seems the decals didn't want to grip the foil either. In any case, I'll be trying a different foil next time.

 

Other issues I had included constantly pulling up already-laid pieces of foil when removing the excess from a newly-laid piece. That foil glue sticks to foil better than it does to plastic! I also managed to reverse the horizontal tail planes, and crack the port wing-root join! One good thing about the foil is that you can't actually tell (unless you pick the model up by the port wing...).

 

So Brian, what's the best (or easiest) way to grain foil? I'm thinking of a couple of 1/48 Scorpions next...

 

Kev

[Out2gtcha]

So Brian, what's the best (or easiest) way to grain foil?

 

 

Id say get yourself a whole mess of different stuff...

 

- First, as you said, get some of the "good stuff" AKA some Renolds Wrap, in a variety of flavors if you can.

 

- Next, If you can find it, some Crest Pro Health toothpaste. Crazy as it sounds its really gritty (but not enough to ruin the foil)

 

- Some XXX AND some of the finer XXXX steel wool

 

- Next some 600 to 2000 grit sand paper.

 

The same technique I suggested earlier ( using a piece of tile a bit wet, and using that surface tension to temporarily adhere the foil to the tile) take and grain the foil with one of the above mentioned products, again in ONE direction only. Id say experiment with ALL of them on different pieces of foil side by side to get a good ideer of what you like and what each produces.

 

Just make sure when you grain that:

 

A - if your using steel wool, little shards of steel wool get EVERYWHERE, and if your using toothpaste it leaves a gritty film; sandpaper leaves the typical residue........

Go back over the piece you just grained with 90% alcohol.

 

B - When you do grain the pieces pay close attention to which direction you are graining. Make sure when you turn that piece over to apply the glue, make sure you apply the glue in the same direction you just grained in. This will dramatically help hide any rouge glue lines that may appear and show through.

 

C - You can grain the foil after application..........sometimes its needed, like my Mig, that I had to grain the foil after it was on, graining in the same direction as the circumference of the fuse.

 

D- If you attempt to foil complex curves ( like and intake opening, front end of a pointy jet, or drop-tanks and the like) just make sure to NOT grain the foil on the outside prior to application..............apply the foil to those areas in smaller separate pieces, (even if there are no panel lines there) and once the part is foiled, you can grain that area all together to help blend all the pieces into one whole looking part, but still be able to apply the foil with less bumps and wrinkles, since the are separate individual pieces, they will likely lay down much more wrinkle free. Remember you can also slightly stretch the thinker foil around complex curves too.

 

These areas are tricky, so they WILL take multiple tries to even remotely get looking correct.

REMEMBER, you CAN sand on the heavy duty foil to conceal some mistakes.........especially if your applying paint over foil, this works well to hide imperfections.

 

HTH,

Brian