Early Mk.I Spit available to preorder from Kotare, in stock at Hannants

[Tissue and Dope]

Decalcomania - it’s an 18th century thing. 

[19squadron]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:56 PM, Pete Roberts said:

Many early build Spitfire Mk Is fought in the Battle of Britain, but by that time had been ‘upgraded’ with armour, reflector gun sights, single prong pitot, three blade prop, new canopy, removal of flash suppressors from guns and gun heating installed. Camouflage and markings went through several changes too. A close look at the Kotare kit shows some other subtle differences too, such as the exhausts.

Some aircraft began the Kanal Kampf without armour or with only some of it, armour around the glycol tank only arrived during the battle, Armin directives were for all 2 speed props to be converted to CS props before the end of june 1940 BTW the Kotare kit offers no option there which is a definite mistake. Flash hiders were removed, and gun warming piping were added in 1939 as guns freezing at altitude became apparent. The "early" exhaust trumpeted by Kotare is actually the exhaust fitted to aircraft with a Merlin II engine, and the subsequent exhaust was for the Merlin III, another point Kotare have missed. So that is only the first 192 aircraft, all from the K series and is not correct for L series and on.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron
addition of pic

[19squadron]

Here is a pic of the Constant Speed prop control fitted as an emergency Airmin Directive to "all" Spitfires in june 1940, as a result of the experience over Dunkirk. This option is missing from the Kotare Spitfire 'mid" kit and the Brian Lane special edition which is a very definite error since the vast majority of P and N series Spitfires as well as L and K series Spitfires would have been fitted with them prior to late june 1940.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron

[19squadron]

Here is a cockpit showing the throttle quadrant and inside of that the push pull two speed prop control that was fitted to all aircraft with DeHavilland props on K, L Nand P series Spitfires at manufacture. 2speed prop control was replaced with the CS Airscrew control in june 1940. The Kotare "mid' and Brian Lane kits do not off this as an option even for the Al Deere Rotol CS propped N3180, which is a very clear error in the kit, it is also an error for N3180 and N3277 as profiled in august 1940 as well as P9495 in june/july 1940 not to mention P9386 in august 1940.

[rsanz]

1 hour ago, 19squadron said:

Some aircraft began the Kanal Kampf without armour or with only some of it, armour around the glycol tank only arrived during the battle, Armin directives were for all 2 speed props to be converted to CS props before june although a number including K9942 now at Cosford went through the entire BoB with a two speed prop. BTW the Kotare kit offers no option there which is a definite mistake. Flash hiders and gun warming piping were added in 1939 as guns freezing at altitude became apparent. The "early" exhaust trumpeted by Kotare is actually the exhaust fitted to aircraft with a Merlin II engine, and the subsequent exhaust was for the Merlin III, another point Kotare have missed. So that is only the first 192 aircraft, all from the K series and is not correct for L series and on.

This photo of WN263/L1043 in the factory with the "early" exhausts appears to disprove your statement above. 

[rsanz]

10 hours ago, 19squadron said:

Here is a pic of the Constant Speed prop control fitted as an emergency Airmin Directive to "all" Spitfires in june 1940, as a result of the experience over Dunkirk. This option is missing from the Kotare Spitfire 'mid" kit and the Brian Lane special edition which is a very definite error since the vast majority of P and N series Spitfires as well as L and K series Spitfires would have been fitted with them prior to late june 1940. R series Spitfires and on had them fitted from the factory.

No. Not prior to late June. According to a 1943 Flight magazine article the variable speed conversions took place from 22 June to 2 August 1940.

[19squadron]

16 hours ago, rsanz said:

This photo of WN263/L1043 in the factory with the "early" exhausts appears to disprove your statement above. 

You would appear to be correct, my mistake, that is the first time I have seen a photo with an L series and that design of ejector exhaust, although airframe 263 is L1048 not L1043. It would however be an anomaly - and there are so many - however, top is a photograph of 609 squadron Spitfires in the first few days of the war when they were issued with 20 L series Spitfires. Both are fitted with Merlin III engines and both appear to have Merlin III type ejector exhausts. The aircraft in the background PR O is very likely to be L1008, the first aircraft flown predominately by John Dundas. L1008 was built before L1048. All the original prints of L series Spitfires I own, have a Merlin III type exhaust, certainly in squadron use, however I shall be looking at all photos I can find of L series aircraft with this in mind, so thankyou for pointing this out!

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron
addition of pic

[19squadron]

6 hours ago, rsanz said:

No. Not prior to late June. According to a 1943 Flight magazine article the variable speed conversions took place from 22 June to 2 August 1940.

Airmin records show De Havilland rushing twelve fitters teams to the 12 stations operating Spitfires on the 24th of June for immediate conversion. De Havilland report all Spitfires operating out of the 12 frontline stations converted with 10 days, all Spitfire Squadrons including those in reserve were converted by 20th july, all aircraft in store as well as those in MU's and OTU's including all De Havilland equipped Hurricanes and Defiants were converted by 16th august. Obviously all aircraft fitted with the Rotol CS prop had CS control levers on the throttle quadrant, as well as all converted aircraft with the DeHavilland prop.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron

[19squadron]

6 hours ago, 19squadron said:

Airmin records show De Havilland rushing twelve fitters teams to the 12 stations operating Spitfires on the 24th of June for immediate conversion. De Havilland report all Spitfires operating out of the 12 frontline stations converted with 10 days, [- that is prior to the 10th july and the recognised date for the commencement of the BoB] and all Spitfires squadrons in reserve by 20th july, and all those in store as well as those in MU's and OTU's, plus all De Havilland Hurricanes and Defiants converted by 16th august. Obviously all aircraft fitted with the Rotol CS prop had CS control levers on the throttle quadrant from the date of issue as a Rotol propped aircraft, as well as all converted aircraft with the DeHavilland prop. Factory R series and P series MkII's had CS props fitted at manufacture.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron

[rsanz]

8 hours ago, 19squadron said:

You would appear to be correct, my mistake, that is the first time I have seen a photo with an L series and that design of ejector exhaust, although airframe 263 is L1048 not L1043. It would however be an anomaly - and there are so many - however, top is a photograph of 609 squadron Spitfires in the first few days of the war when they were issued with 20 L series Spitfires. Both are fitted with Merlin III engines and both appear to have Merlin III type ejector exhausts. The aircraft in the background PR O is very likely to be L1008, the first aircraft flown predominately by John Dundas. L1008 was built before L1048. All the original prints of L series Spitfires I own, have a Merlin III type exhaust, certainly in squadron use, however I shall be looking at all photos I can find of L series aircraft with this in mind, so thankyou for pointing this out!

No. According to the 609 Squadron group, PR-O in that photo was L1084. Which I was built after L1048.

 

[19squadron]

2 hours ago, rsanz said:

No. According to the 609 Squadron group, PR-O in that photo was L1084. Which I was built after L1048.

 

Yes Mark Postlethwaite sent me that, but I never got around to cross-checking it as a reference, however in all my library of early war 609 squadron pics the serial numbers written in very small type on the rudder are impossible to read, and since there is no written record of the Squadron codes written on L1008 I am very skeptical about the table above - unless you have a clear legable photograph of PR O showing the serial number well enough to read? Otherwise I think some of this table is speculation, what we do know is that John Dundass flew L1008 and he was associated with the codes PR O which is why I wrote "the aircraft is likely  to be L1008" which implies a degree of uncertainty. However the issue at hand was that the exhaust ejector fitted to K series aircraft was designed for the Merlin II. The exhaust fitted to to the Merlin III was a different shape designed to give more rearward thrust, if there were a handful of surplus Merlin II exhausts knocking about Eastworks it may be true they were fitted to Merlin III's since the cylinder head is the same casting, however the exhaust design coincided with a change in specification of the engine and therefore the vague "early" or "late" titles do not contribute at all to the history of the Spitfire or it's design, it is a lazy description. It is certainly true that the Merlin II exhaust was not intended for the Merlin III. Below is a 609 squadron Spitfire from 1939 after the change to wartime PR codes.

Edited December 26, 2023 by 19squadron
addition of pic

[19squadron]

And to reinforce the point, here is a early 1939 photo of a Spitfire Mk1, an L series aircraft with a Merlin III and Merlin III exhaust ejector stacks, still fitted with Browning Mk2's and Mk. 1 flash suppressors.

[Kagemusha]

4 minutes ago, 19squadron said:

And to reinforce the point, here is a early 1939 photo of a Spitfire Mk1, an L series aircraft with a Merlin III and Merlin III exhaust ejector stacks, still fitted with Browning Mk2's and Mk. 1 flash suppressors.

 

The guy sat nearest the exhaust looks a bit like my maternal grandad, strange to think there might well be a similar photo out there of when he was in the RAF.

[CRAZY IVAN5]

56 minutes ago, Kagemusha said:

 

The guy sat nearest the exhaust looks a bit like my maternal grandad, strange to think there might well be a similar photo out there of when he was in the RAF.

Wouldn't that be cool if it was him!

[Kagemusha]

44 minutes ago, CRAZY IVAN5 said:

Wouldn't that be cool if it was him!

 

It would, but I think he joined the RAF later, he's been dead more than thirty years, but it's got me thinking about trying to find his service records. 

 

Thanks for the further inspiration.