P-47 Thunderbolt - 56th FG - Color Help Questions

[Aviacom]

Hi Guy's,

 

I know there are some very knowledgable P-47 guy's on here so thought it may be the best place to ask.

 

I want to build one of the 56th FG P-47's in the 'Two Blue' Camo scheme, the problem is, what colors were the Blue's? Insignia Blue and Azure Blue with NMF Undersides?

 

Again. For the Black Topsides on some of the aircraft, Satin Black or Matt Black?

 

Thanks in advance

[Juggernut]

If you're referring to the group's P-47M's then the 63fs had the two-tone blue...  I don't recall seeing any P-47D's painted in the two-tone blue scheme.  There may have been some black painted P-47D's but I've only seen one photograph of what possibly may be a black painted D model.  Other than that, these "wild" paint schemes were limited to the group's P-47M's.  There's been no conclusive proof about which colors were used and I suspect they were mixed from RAF or USAAC stocks.  Having said that, the colors you listed are a good starting point but note that the 63rd fs rudders were medium blue which was not a match for either the dark or lighter blue used as camouflage colors.

 

The 61st fs, P-47M colors have never been conclusively identified as far as I'm aware, in spite of some "old, built model painted during the war" and relying on that as primary source material.  But, and I use that word cautiously, the accepted norm today is that the topside colors of the 61st fs, P-47M's were black.  Now whether that's flat or satin is a personal choice...I prefer a satin finish.  We all know (or most of us do anyway) that gloss paint or waxed flat paint, allows the aircraft to travel a bit faster than an otherwise flat painted airplane will...parasite drag.  That and given that these P-47M's were painted during the very end of the war in Europe, I tend to believe that satin is more plausible than a flat finish.  Your choice may be different.... which is perfectly acceptable and nowhere outside the realm of probable.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Juggernut

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, Juggernut said:

... But, and I use that word cautiously, the accepted norm today is that the topside colors of the 61st fs, P-47M's were black.  Now whether that's flat or satin is a personal choice...I prefer a satin finish.  We all know (or most of us do anyway) that gloss paint or waxed flat paint, allows the aircraft to travel a bit faster than an otherwise flat painted airplane will...parasite drag.  That and given that these P-47M's were painted during the very end of the war in Europe, I tend to believe that satin is more plausible than a flat finish.  Your choice may be different.... which is perfectly acceptable and nowhere outside the realm of probable.

You may want to ask to Krys Lanowski (on Facebook) as his dad flew HV-Z, but looking at the pics, satin would be your best choice.

[Uncarina]

This is the aircraft that I am looking to build:

 

 

Note that it doesn’t have a fin fillet. Was it the case that some M’s didn’t have them, or is this actually a D?

 

Thanks,  Tom

 

 

[Joe Hegedus]

2 hours ago, Uncarina said:

This is the aircraft that I am looking to build:

 

 

Note that it doesn’t have a fin fillet. Was it the case that some M’s didn’t have them, or is this actually a D?

 

Thanks,  Tom

 

 

Most definitely a P-47M.  Many, if not all, M's were delivered without the fillets as they were based on the P-47D-30 airframe and the fillet wasn't introduced until the P-47D-40 IIRC; some (maybe all) had them fitted in-theater.  Some even got the larger P-47N style fillet.

[RBrown]

Serial No. 44-21140 was a P-47M-1-RE marked "Darling Dottie" on the port and 'Shoot You're Faded" on the starboard.

[Tolga ULGUR]

On 2/7/2023 at 5:02 PM, Aviacom said:

Hi Guy's,

 

I know there are some very knowledgable P-47 guy's on here so thought it may be the best place to ask.

 

I want to build one of the 56th FG P-47's in the 'Two Blue' Camo scheme, the problem is, what colors were the Blue's? Insignia Blue and Azure Blue with NMF Undersides?

 

Again. For the Black Topsides on some of the aircraft, Satin Black or Matt Black?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

Black M's look satin. However, this color is not black like coal. It must be from the pigments, there is a very slight bluish color.

[Uncarina]

1 hour ago, Joe Hegedus said:

Most definitely a P-47M.  Many, if not all, M's were delivered without the fillets as they were based on the P-47D-30 airframe and the fillet wasn't introduced until the P-47D-40 IIRC; some (maybe all) had them fitted in-theater.  Some even got the larger P-47N style fillet.

 

1 hour ago, RBrown said:

Serial No. 44-21140 was a P-47M-1-RE marked "Darling Dottie" on the port and 'Shoot You're Faded" on the starboard.

 

Thank you both for the info--this is very helpful! I've been wanting to build this aircraft for years.

 

Sincerely,

 

Tom

[Aviacom]

4 hours ago, Uncarina said:

This is the aircraft that I am looking to build:

 

 

Note that it doesn’t have a fin fillet. Was it the case that some M’s didn’t have them, or is this actually a D?

 

Thanks,  Tom

 

 

Thanks so much for all your help.

 

Looking at that picture above, while I'm in front of my paint rack, Those two top side blues match exactly to MRP Azure Blue and MRP PRU Blue!

 

As for the 'Black' P-47's, Mr Hobby Japanese 'Cowling Color' (Number 125) seems a perfect match for that.

 

So, once again, Thanks!!

[TAG]

That photo is colorized, unfortunately @Tolga ULGUR, you can see Howdi's watermark in the lower right hand corner which means it is the artist's -in this case, Nathan Howland aka Howdi) interpretation of how the colors should look. (Quick aside, Howdi is easily the best photo restorer/colorizer in the biz, his FB page is a goldmine of reference photos!)

 

In fact, the photo posted of 44-21140 is also colorized by Howdi, here's the original B/W version:

 

That being said, here's my two bits regarding 56th FG P-47M colors:

 

- No one knows for certain which paints were actually used to paint the 56th's M's, so the best one can do is eyeball a paint mix and try to get as close to what you see in period photos (with the inescapable caveat that even original slides can have their colors fade, change tone, or just degrade in general, so even primary sources must be taken with a grain of salt).

- This is debatable, but in my opinion it is clear in every reference photo I've laid eyes upon that all three of the 56th's squadron's kept the undersides of their M's in natural metal finish.

- The squadron liveries in question are the 61st (HV squadron code) and the 63rd (UN squadron code), the former's planes being painted in a black with eggplant purple undertones, and the latter's with several different hues of blue. Again, no one knows which exact paint types or even their origin (British? American?) so the best you can do is find something that approximates what you see in your refs.

 

Matt McDougal from Doogs Models recently built a 1/48 version of 44-21225 "Fireball" UN-K from the 63rd FS, here's a link where you can find the whole build series (something like 15+ episodes!), pretty sure he used MRP colors for his build as well so should be a good place to start to find your own colors for 44-21140.

 

So I dug thru my 56th FG files, here's a few period colors photos that I could find of the 61st and 63rd squadrons.

 

Note how the 63rd birds have a flat black band behind the red cowling group ID, three separate hues of blue (two in the camo scheme and a third for the rudder/serial number) and NMF undersides.

 

61st FS kites were painted -quite roughly, I must say- in an "almost" black color that seemed to chalk pretty badly once exposed to high-altitude UV rays. In some photos the finish looks satin, almost gloss, but in others it appears dead flat. Also of note, the thin outlines on the HV squadron code letters are actually NMF, not white. Undersides also left in NMF. Here's a link to Witold "Lanny" Lanowski's wartime career, including many photos of the M variant Jugs when he was in the 56th, pics are in black & white but worth a gander regardless.

 

Now some B/W refs from both 61st & 63rd FS:

 

Here's Lanowski's HV-Z:

Close-up of Lanny's nose art, an iron gauntlet crushing a 109 against a backdrop of the Polish national colors. Look how chipped, stained, and faded the black paint is!

 

Voilà, there's more info out there if you dig a little deeper, hope this helps get you started on your project.

 

Looking forward to the WIP thread!

 

- Thomaz

 

[Uncarina]

Thomaz, this information is gold! I’m not seeing the black band on 44-21140; was it not always applied on 63rd aircraft?

 

Cheers,  Tom

[TAG]

5 hours ago, Uncarina said:

Thomaz, this information is gold! I’m not seeing the black band on 44-21140; was it not always applied on 63rd aircraft?

 

Cheers,  Tom

Indeed, 44-21140 didn't have the black band on the cowl. Good eye, Tom!

 

As tends to be the case, there are exceptions to every "rule" when it comes to wartime paint schemes. So I suppose most of the M's in the 63rd had the black band on the engine cowling, but not all of them.

[John1]

Just curious, was there a reason for painting those P-47's black?

[TAG]

52 minutes ago, John1 said:

Just curious, was there a reason for painting those P-47's black?

 

Flamboyance?

 

It certainly wasn't for any sort of actual camouflage, as the 56th was based at Boxted in 44-45 and I seriously doubt they were under any danger of being attacked by the Luftwaffe at that point of the war.

 

A black airframe in daylight skies was also pretty conspicuous, although it's been said the USAAF actually wanted to draw the Jagdfliegers into a fight, as their ultimate goal was the complete destruction of the Luftwaffe. Makes for a plausible and reasonable explanation for all the late war NMF finishes and super flashy paint schemes, or even nonsensical ones like the 61st FS plum-colored Jugs, after all the whole point was to be spotted and (hopefully) jumped by the enemy.