EA-6B Prowler (02 April: Done!)

[easixpedro]

Ok, quick post to show you where my heads at--thinking about weight. 

 

The kit landing gear is great and looks like the real deal. Hefty too. Waaay too much in fact for what I'm doing. Case in point, 33 Grams before all the bits and bobs are added, plus resin tires, which frankly are a must.

 

One main landing gear strut is 13 Grams

 

Just the resin tire (minus the rims, which will add more) add another 4 Grams

 

So last night, I started tinkering with how to make the landing gear. I could cast them in resin, but that's still a lot of weight adding up, and all forward of the hook point. Searching through my scraps of styrene, I found a couple of tubes that were suitable diameter and started making my own. Actually went better than I'd imagined and I think is going to be a viable way forward. 

 

Here's the one I started building. Just started adding bits that I saw on the metal kit part, ensuring that wherever kit parts attached, they actually fit, and that everything lined up/was symmetrical. (Apologies for the blurry pic--will give better ones once I actually start the gear). But check it out--1 Gram! I can probably build everything and still not come close to the weight of the metal bits. 

 

The hook itself is super stout--I keep checking it. Potential problem I'm trying to prevent is that the part that extends into the deck isn't that long, so there's a lot of pressure all at point. I trimmed it to less than an inch, and in reality should have kept it at around 1½ to 2" and really buried it in the deck to give it a bit more strength. We'll get 'er done, I'm just not taking any chances.

Here's a pic with her and all the stores (held on by tape) for a weight check. Still holds, and is quite steady.

 

-Peter

Edited December 29, 2021 by easixpedro
Math in public...

[Anthony in NZ]

Nice work Peter, I am impressed at how much weight that hook is taking.  That's looking impressive indeed, it does in the photos and I cant imagine how it looks in 'real life'

 

Nice legs......

[JayW]

Peter - where have I been as you have been building this beast?  Oh I know - building a beast of my own!  But not a Grumman - a Vought.  Following.

 

And I had no idea you are a veteran Navy pilot in Intruders/Prowlers.  Right?  I lived in Wa State for a very long time, and was in the mountains alot on weekends.  I can still vividly recall a day in the Cascades east of Granite Falls when we heard deafening roars echoing around.  Then we saw it - Intruders turning and banking with great authority inside a meandering river canyon!!!!    I mean really rough terrain!  And pedal to the metal it seemed.  Like I said - will never forget it.

 

I only have about a million questions I'd like to ask you.  But how about this - what do you think it was like flying a Corsair looking for Zero's?  My book about VF-17 gives me a pretty good impression of how ballsy those guys were, generally.

Edited January 4, 2022 by JayW

[Out2gtcha]

That tail hook really does give a great impression of in flight movement!  With all those pods and such, I can only imagine how much this thing would weight if you had them all in resin for + the OOB gear.  You might start getting up towards my big Grumman Cat, and for this purpose, you definitely dont want that!  

[easixpedro]

14 hours ago, JayW said:

Peter - where have I been as you have been building this beast?  Oh I know - building a beast of my own!  But not a Grumman - a Vought.  Following.

 

And I had no idea you are a veteran Navy pilot in Intruders/Prowlers.  Right?  I lived in Wa State for a very long time, and was in the mountains alot on weekends.  I can still vividly recall a day in the Cascades east of Granite Falls when we heard deafening roars echoing around.  Then we saw it - Intruders turning and banking with great authority inside a meandering river canyon!!!!    I mean really rough terrain!  And pedal to the metal it seemed.  Like I said - will never forget it.

 

I only have about a million questions I'd like to ask you.  But how about this - what do you think it was like flying a Corsair looking for Zero's?  My book about VF-17 gives me a pretty good impression of how ballsy those guys were, generally.

Jay, you got me thinking about zorching around with our hair on fire...

 

For the crowd, Jay is referring to our training routes up in the PacNorWest.  NAS Whidbey Island has been there since the early days of WWII. Part of the base is a seaplane base--the ramps and hangars are still there. Over the years, it was home to the Navy's heavy and medium attack communities: A-3s and later the A-6s.  Because of that heritage, there's some really gnarly low level training routes through the Cascades. They were developed for the A-6 and it's all weather attack capability. They're known as either VR or IR routes--Visual Route or Instrument Route. The best are the VRs as you fly them in clear weather. The instrument routes are flown in the goo and on instruments and can be rather hair raising.  Case in point is the VR-1350/1355 combo.  You'd take off from Whidbey Island and do a low level through the Cascades out into Eastern Washington to hit the  bombing range at Boardman in Oregon. On the way home, it was back through the Cascades and pop out essentially into the landing pattern over Whidbey (best to do it on a Friday afternoon, and you'd come screaming into the break right over the O' Club) . Approximately 55 minutes of hair on fire, down low in the weeds as fast as you could get the ol' girl to go...usually 420 knots.  (Down low, you set the airspeed/groundspeed so that it's easily divisible in minutes: 420 knots is 7nm/minute, 480 is 8nm/minute--keeps the math in public to a minimum and keeps you from being task saturated  and killing yourself while trying to figure out navigation & timing that close to the ground). We kind of take it for granted, but back in the day, Intruder bubbas flew with intricate paper charts that laid out all the navigation. Now it’s all moving maps and GPS similar to how 99% of us use our maps/Google on our phones.

 

Here's a couple of videos on Youtube to show the action:

The old girl, doing just a section of the VR-1355

 

 

And a newer version from a Growler.  This one is a bit longer and shows the entire route.  Around the 23:00 mark they’re approaching Glacier Peak. Always a fun point in the low level, as the terrain falls away rapidly. Have gone over it with old Intruder pilots, where we’d be inverted and pulling G’s going down the backside—you can do it and live as it’s a good 8,000 foot drop in elevation. On the backside was a little section we called the “Whidbey H.” It was 2 valleys running parallel with a little gap in between. It was a point of pride if you could fly the gap and essentially not kill yourself scrapping off on the valley wall as it spit you out on the other side.  More than a few times you’d look up and see folks out hiking or otherwise enjoying nature in their own way.    At the 6:30 mark, they go booming over a lake—there was a Cub Scout camp there, and it was always fun to imagine the reaction we got as we raced by.  Without a doubt the best low levels I’ve ever flown. Great scenery, but more importantly it’s great training because it’s so demanding.

 

 

 

As for your question, I’m a realist. Flying anything during the war was likely terrifying because you had a high likelihood of being killed. Don’t think it got better from the Solomons with austere conditions to TF-38 dealing with the Kamikaze threat off Okinawa. It always amazes me to think about that human aspect of it—a bunch of kids trained to fly and maintain really complex machinery. And trained well.  If you haven’t read it, I highly suggest Tommy Blackburn’s “The Jolly Rogers.” He describes what it was like trying to stand up the squadron and lead men through it all.  Fascinating. I also highly recommend Eric Begerud's "Fire in the Sky" which is perhaps THE best analysis of the air war in the South Pacific. It's good--to the point of describing how the climate would just rot things like fabric and leather, and what it was like to fight under such conditions.

 

Happy to answer more--you'll just have to listen to my ramblings  

[JayW]

4 hours ago, easixpedro said:

For the crowd, Jay is referring to our training routes up in the PacNorWest.  NAS Whidbey Island has been there since the early days of WWII. Part of the base is a seaplane base--the ramps and hangars are still there. Over the years, it was home to the Navy's heavy and medium attack communities: A-3s and later the A-6s.  Because of that heritage, there's some really gnarly low level training routes through the Cascades.

 

Peter - you have just treated us to some tremendous video.  Especially the second one where the guy in the back seat has the camera.  And if we are not already - made some real Growler fans out of us. 

 

Specifically, where I saw the A-6's was in the Monte Cristo area of the Glacier Peak Wilderness along a trail in the Glacier Creek valley, or better canyon, leading to the end of the valley called Glacier Basin, a popular hiking/climbing area.  It was in the 1990's. The canyon's sides are lined by high ragged ridges and summits, with very steep sides, and the valley ends in a headwall of sorts formed by high ridges on Monte Cristo Peak.  Pretty manly mountains in there.  Those aircraft were making high-G 90 deg banked turns first one way then another.  Watching that along with the deafening roar was just....unforgettable.  The video does a fabulous job of showing what it looks like on the other end!

 

I recognize so many of those mountains in the video.  For those interested, here is a shot of the Growler about to pass over the summit of Glacier Peak (Cascade volcano - 10,000 ft elevation):

 

  

 

Immediately after passing over the summit, the pilot rolls the aircraft over on its back for a death defying decent:

 

 

Note the horizon.  A few minutes later, the Growler follows an F/A-18 (did I get that right?) right over the summit of Mount Pugh (7200 ft elevation):

 

 

My son and I (and one of his friends), spent the night on top of My Pugh years ago - a most memorable experience.  We awoke to a "cloud sea" covering all the valley bottoms, with cloud water falls spilling over low points on ridges.  Ah the mountains....

 

All of you - watch those videos from start to finish.  Thanks Peter.

 

4 hours ago, easixpedro said:

As for your question, I’m a realist. Flying anything during the war was likely terrifying because you had a high likelihood of being killed.

 

I think I understand.  My now deceased uncle served in the 354th FG (9th AF) in Europe, flying P-51's.  Before he died, he told us a few stories, some very hair raising.  How did young kids do that?  I believe he was never comfortable talking much about it earlier in his life.  Perhaps it brought back some PTSD?  I know he felt badly causing the deaths of enemy pilots, or ground troops, or civilians for that matter, all in the seat of a fighter aircraft.  It must have truly been a terrifying experience to get hooked up with a competent adversary in the middle of a melee, which he did on some occasions, losing your wingman, dropping altitude and losing energy as you get into a turning and burning dogfight eventually getting to ground level without the option of bailing out.   It's you, or him.

 

I will have to acquire that Tommy Blackburn book.  I did read a book a long time ago called "Intruder" - a great book.  The author describes night carrier landings, low on fuel, dead tired, and having to go around after missing the wire ("Bolter bolter!!").  Also the descriptions of AAA fire, and missiles, are just terrifying.

 

I will now cease the highjack of this build string.

 

  

Edited January 4, 2022 by JayW

[easixpedro]

1 hour ago, JayW said:

I will now cease the highjack of this build string. 

Nah, no hijacking here.  Always happy to discuss and help translate for those interested. I think we all tend to get enthralled with creating replicas of machines. For me it's more about the research into them and how/why they were used. I like airplanes, and I like history, so...  Add to that,  I flew for 18 of my 22 years in the navy, and like every aviator I'm a bit superstitious. I'm a firm believer that airplanes have souls. They'll talk to you, you just have to listen. 

[easixpedro]

Plumb forgot, but a lot of the mountain flying scenes you’ll see in Top Gun 2 were filmed on that route. Will be fun to see ‘em on the big screen like that!

[stusbke]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:48 PM, easixpedro said:

Ok, quick post to show you where my heads at--thinking about weight. 

 

The kit landing gear is great and looks like the real deal. Hefty too. Waaay too much in fact for what I'm doing. Case in point, 33 Grams before all the bits and bobs are added, plus resin tires, which frankly are a must.

 

 

 

The hook itself is super stout--I keep checking it. Potential problem I'm trying to prevent is that the part that extends into the deck isn't that long, so there's a lot of pressure all at point. I trimmed it to less than an inch, and in reality should have kept it at around 1½ to 2" and really buried it in the deck to give it a bit more strength. We'll get 'er done, I'm just not taking any chances.

Here's a pic with her and all the stores (held on by tape) for a weight check. Still holds, and is quite steady.

 

-Peter

Looking awesome this love every bit of it... as for the gear couldnt you use an F14 main gear weren't they the same? Or was that the hawkeye I'm getting confused ! 

 

Cheers

Frederick Jacobs

[easixpedro]

2 hours ago, stusbke said:

Looking awesome this love every bit of it... as for the gear couldnt you use an F14 main gear weren't they the same? Or was that the hawkeye I'm getting confused ! 

 

Cheers

Frederick Jacobs

Hmmm. Perhaps? Don't think so, but haven't even checked to be honest. I'm sure there's some parts commonality between them, as after all, they're Grumman products. I've actually got most of both main mounts built out, just fine tuning the details.

 

Funny story though.

 

When I was with a certain Darth Vader squadron, we had a bird that was in need of a part for the main landing gear. Think it might have been a little micro switch for the weight on wheels--but none in the supply system and the bird had been down for awhile waiting for the part, (if they aren't flown in a certain number of days, more inspections are required and then a check flight to ensure the a/c is good, so it's a delicate dance).  Sailors being sailors, they realized that there was an A-6 sitting in storage near our hangar. That bird was destined for the NASM. They went and got the part and our jet was up. The Smithsonian wasn't too happy when they realized parts had been being cannibalized. Might have gotten away with it if we'd replaced it when the new part arrived.  Not the first time (or the last) that squadron level maintenance gets a little inventive in trying to meet the flight schedule... 

-Peter

[JayW]

14 hours ago, easixpedro said:

Plumb forgot, but a lot of the mountain flying scenes you’ll see in Top Gun 2 were filmed on that route. Will be fun to see ‘em on the big screen like that!

 

Is there one route through the Cascades, or more?  I noticed some of the same ground features on both videos (like the lakes).  If it's only one, then I am going to go over the longer Growler video and see if I can find that Glacier Creek valley where I saw the A-6's.  Cannot overstate the maneuvers that were going on in that wicked place. 

[JayW]

17 hours ago, easixpedro said:

For me it's more about the research into them and how/why they were used. I like airplanes, and I like history, so...  Add to that,  I flew for 18 of my 22 years in the navy, and like every aviator I'm a bit superstitious.

 

Ditto on the research.  Was an engineer for 40 odd years at Boeing, so I absolutely love pouring over drawings and manuals, learning as I go.  I'm good at it.  That is why I love Aircorps Library, where some aircraft (not all) are very well documented.   As for those 18 years, we thank you for your service!  

[easixpedro]

2 hours ago, JayW said:

 

Is there one route through the Cascades, or more?  I noticed some of the same ground features on both videos (like the lakes).  If it's only one, then I am going to go over the longer Growler video and see if I can find that Glacier Creek valley where I saw the A-6's.  Cannot overstate the maneuvers that were going on in that wicked place. 

easiest way to see all the routes is to look at a VFR Sectional. You can view them digitally here: SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts

 

Here's a trimmed version of the Seattle chart. You can see the end of the VR-1355 going through the Cascades. You can also see IR and VR routes depicted in gray.  Should be pretty easy to locate the Lat/Long where you were and see what section of the route they were on. 

 

[JayW]

Thanks for pulling that up Peter.  We were a couple ridges over on that trip:

 

 

Longtime ago and my memory plays tricks on me.  Perhaps it was a different trip; we did very many.....but I don't think so.  Could the routes have changed over time? 

 

Anyway, I see a number of routes.  Wow - what a playground!  Looked like tremendous fun.  And BTW, I was impressed by the roll rate I see in the video.  You guys could turn on a dime it seems.

[easixpedro]

12 minutes ago, JayW said:

Thanks for pulling that up Peter.  We were a couple ridges over on that trip:

 

 

Longtime ago and my memory plays tricks on me.  Perhaps it was a different trip; we did very many.....but I don't think so.  Could the routes have changed over time? 

 

Anyway, I see a number of routes.  Wow - what a playground!  Looked like tremendous fun.  And BTW, I was impressed by the roll rate I see in the video.  You guys could turn on a dime it seems.

As depicted, that line is the 'centerline' of the route. I honestly can't remember, but the width was either 3nm or 5nm on either side for a 6 or 10nm width. You very well could have been on there and they were just on the far side of the route structure. Or they could have gotten lost--easy to early turn at a ridgeline down low and end up in unrecognized terrain, even though you've flown it several times a week for years. Or could be a new guy/gal that is just all hosed up...have been part of flights like that where the lead is the new guy working on qualifications--they're completely lost, but you're keeping quiet to see if they figure it out and make the necessary corrections.  The routes a great for training--the point being that you're given a time to hit the 'target.' And you have to be there at that time +/- x number of seconds. (really important because there's other people using the route, so time deconfliction is key). Anything you can do to make that time works--speed up, slow down, cut corners on the route works.