Mustang wings...

[Ironwing]

All,

 

This topic has been boiling here for some time. Since the topic is closed, Ill start a new one. The Mustang wing is smooth. Contrary to what "photographic" evidence may suggest. The only thing current photos of restored aircraft prove is how ambitious the restoration crew was in trying to replicate the original factory finish. Ive been looking at photos for a while now; original NAA photographs as well as photos of restored aircraft. The wing is smooth.

 

To suggest that an aircraft out of the factory or in combat has a wing in that condition is absurd. If G loading causes a wing to bend like that, were panels are bent and rivets are popped, the wing is shot and not airworthy.Ill scan some photos of the wing (combat and factory) from different angles ASAP and post them here. I dont believe for a moment that a photo taken of a restored aircraft is accurate to any degree and, to be honest, I resent having someone trying to shove it down my throat too.

 

This reminds of the Dragon prop debate...

 

 

PS: The Mustang wing was stressed to 11.5 G's...I doubt anyone ever lived to talk about it if he got to that point

With all due respect...

 

Cheers,

 

Geoff

[RandyB]

Here's the deal, guys.

 

A civil discussion is encouraged. If this thread even remotely heads in the direction of the other one, I'm yanking it immediately. No personal attacks, personal references, or displays in a disrespectful manner will be tolerated.

 

-randy

[Ironwing]

Randy,

 

I think you've scared everyone off

 

Geoff

[CharlesMetz]

Randy,

 

I think you've scared everyone off

 

Geoff

In situations like this my father used to ask: "Hmmm ... uh, when is the circus coming to town?"

 

Charles Metz

[TwoHands]

I thought about this very thing the other day. I wondered... if they filled the seams, and the wigs flex under load, what did they have in the early 40's the could fill a seam and take those loads without cracking and falling out? Oakum? HA HA!! Jeff

[tourist]

Charles, good to see you back, I hope you are well.

 

Geoff I agree with you.

Factory fresh Mustangs had perfectly smooth wings, anyone who has the Squadron/Signal P-51D Walkaround can see that easily.

Other factory photos and even color factory footage confirms this.

It was pretty much the same thing with Mustangs in combat.

While it is possible to see photos with some of the rivets catching the light at certain angles, the vast majority of WWII photos show smooth wings.

Mustangs were well taken care of by their crews, I remember a WWII pilot (maybe Art Fiedler?) saying that the crews would spend a lot of time making sure the wing finish remained as good as possible.

The only parts of the wings that would often show some "stress" were the guns and ammo bay doors, most likely due to their constant manipulation.

Here are a few pictures that, I think, illustrate the point:

 

Dirty but smooth:

(Web-Birds photo)

 

Shangri La:

 

 

Mustang I:

[tourist]

F-51D in Korea:

 

 

Ding Hao, paint a little worn out and pretty dirty but still smooth:

[Radub]

I am the one who showed the photo of the "badly restored" Mustang. I am not trying to "shove my opinion down anyone's throat", I am simply trying to figure out the facts.

Anyway, the fact is that for every photo that shows "no lines" there is at least one that shows panel lines. Look at the photos posted above.

 

If you look in the already mentioned Squadron Signal's Walk Round P-51D, there are plenty of photos (WW2 photos) that show panel lines:

Page 18, left side of page, bottom right of page - you can see the panel line runnning from the gun bay to the flap

Page 19 - bottom of page - rivets, rivets and more rivets, panel lines, all showing through the primer/smoother/whatever.

Page 22 - bottom left - you can see the panel lines running from the gunbay to the flap. Right side of the page - you can see the panel line runing from the gunbay to the flap.

Page 23 - right side of the page - rivets, riverts and more rivets plus panel lines.

Page 27 - top of the page - panel lines all over the underside.

Page 34 - bottom of page - you can see the panel lines on the undersides running from the aileron to the wing leading edge

Page 35 - clear panel lines around the panels covering the in-wing fuel tanks and runing along the spar from the fuel tank covers to the wing tips.

Page 42 - bottom right - visible panel line running along the spar from the insignia to the wing root.

 

In the book "P-51 Mustang Restored" by Paul Cogan (the story of Lil' Margaret), on page 24 there is a photo of the wing from above both before and after restoration. It is evident that the area between the spar and the leading edge is treated differently. This tallies with the pages from the manual posted in the other thread. By looking at the two photos, it is evident that they did not do too much to the wing during rerstoration. Lil' Margaret is featured in the Aero Detail book on the Mustang, so in my opinion, that restored (flyable) aircraft may be taken as a good reference.

 

All the aircraft in the Aero Detail book (some of them flyable and still flying) show panel lines and rivets on their wings. Now, I have no idea why that is. Maybe all the restorrers spoke to each other and agreed that they should not bother...? Or maybe that is a good representation of the reality...? I don't know! It stands to reason that if these people went through all the trouble to restore an aircraft to flying condition, then they had to have the aircraft certified to FAA standards. I presume that the FAA would make sure that the wing conforms as much as possible to the factory standard. What does that mean? I have no idea! You draw your own conclusions.

 

In my opinion, an attempt is being made to come up with a black-and-white decree on the subject, whereas the reality is that there were numerous variations. I will not draw a conclusion, lest I be suspected of "showing opinions", but I recommend that by using your own references and the infomation provided in the maintenance manual, you make up your own minds. Do not let anyone, not even me, to "shove their opinion down your throats", even when they claim that they are doing the exact opposite.

 

Radu

[JCote]

Radu,

 

Thank you for an informative, objective-sounding and temperate response (probably sounds patronising, not at ALL intended to be).

 

Jean

[Dollar65]

Hi All,

 

As mentioned in the previous post, only about 40% of the wing (from the leading edge to the maximum thickness of the wing) is to be treated with filler and airfoil smoother.

 

the rest of the wing is only recovered with YZC, and the Grey Airfoil Smoother applied along the root near the place were the fuselage joins,altought some pictures shows the GAS recovering all the wings (except ailerons, flaps and tanks panels), both cases are documented here:

 

a wartime picture of a relatively new plane being serviced in England, lines and rivets can be seen of the original print:

 

same thing, but the plane is no longer brand new (notice the weathering, you can guess the NMF, YZC, GAS and silver paint, back of the prop as well!)

 

Another wing, from a plane that had been in service for about 2 months when the picture was taken, showning where the panel lines are visible

 

 

The only panel line usually visible on the trailing edge is the panel just above the gear leg, as it seems it was installed after the wing was painted, as seen on several factory pictures.

Some close up on good quality period pictures shown that you could guess the filled panel lines once the planes had been working hard, but not as clearly on the places that were not treated.

 

HTH,

 

Laurent

[Ironwing]

Greetings All,

 

Good to see you all back and well at the circus. In any event, the expression of opinions is a persons right. Hence, we do that here on LSP. Here are mine.

 

1. Mustang wings, from the factory, were finished in a manner which conformed to the TO and build requirements set forth by both NAA and the Department of Defense.

 

2. Production controls were strict. Variations were unacceptable and as such, sent to be reworked on reapaired while in the production line.

 

3. The Mustang was flush rivited. This is a key point.

 

4. Any screws used were Philips and they were countersunk. This is another key point.

 

5. You might see circles where the rivets are but not depressions.

 

6. Those circles, when covered in primer and aluminized lacquer, disappeared, especially on restored birds that fly. Not Museum Queens.

 

7. Restored aircraft, while pretty, offer general information, size and shape data, but are not nineteen forty-four built Mustangs.

 

8. Panel lines, perpendicular to the airflow, were of great concern due to NAAE's concern over boundary layer disruption as air traveled over the wing surfaces. The panel line from the rear outside corner of the gun bay was never filled and always visible (paralell with the airflow).This also holds true for the panel line which deliniates the wing tip from the main wing assembly (paralell with airflow)and the LE section which resides directly in front of the main gear leg.

 

9. The laminar flow wing does what it does in the first forty percent of the cord and was finished accordingly. However, as

stated before, the flush riveted wing surface was easily covered when painted.

 

10. There arent any panel lines to fill aft of forty percent cord with the exception of the line which goes from the gun bay to

the TE.

 

11. Thanks to those that have contributed...the wings were smooth. Further comment will not be forthcoming.

 

Hope everyone is well...

 

Cheers,

 

Geoff

[ssculptor]

I think I have come up with the perfect solution to this problem.

I will make a model of the P-51D with the port wing perfectly smooth, except for a few necessary panel lines.

The starboard wing will have every possible detail, every rivet, panel line, etc. showing.

Then I'll photo the model so only the port wing shows and another shot with the starboard wing visible.

I will then show the particular photos to the people who prefer the smooth wing and those who prefer all the detail showing so each will see only what he wants to see.

 

Wont that be just ducky?

 

Or perhaps, since I really do not care much for the P-51 I'll just be satisfied with the models I have completed already and not waste my time on all this tomfoolery. I can see making models of the Mustangs that were modified and used for post war air racing, but other than that I have had enough of that particular aeroplane.

 

The old curmudgeon

Young whippersnapers making models with rivets that they cannot see, whats this younger generation coming to, I ask ye!

[CPNGROATS]

"lines on the mirror, lines on the wing.."

"they pretended not to notice, they were caught up in the race"

 

"Life with the MUSTANG....shure enough to blow your mind..."

 

w/apologies

 

Cheers,

ggc

[Ironwing]

Youre all nuts. Obviously, Im the only sane one here...

[Hans]

 

Here is another pic of the Mustang in the Dutch Air force museum, clearly showing depressions in wings's surface where the rivets are.

 

The aircraft was aquired from USAAF surplus in 1946 to serve as an instructional airframe for the aerospce department of Delft Technical University. In 1964 it was given to the Dutch Air Force and landed in the Museum. It has as far as I'm aware of, not been restored, only given Dutch markings. I do not know whether the " ribbling" on the wings' surface is typical of a Mustang wings or something that has not been repaired by the time the war ended and then regarded as superfluous to do.

 

The spitfire also has this effect on the wing as shown in the photo below of the IWM's example.

 

 

 

 

Hans