HK B-17...C 5/4 sweating the metal

[brahman104]

 who would have thought rigging a B17 would be like rigging a Sopwith Camel

 

..love all that metal - just looks so real - this is going to be truly something to behold

 

Peter

 

Hahaha, this is EXACTLY why I don't build biplanes

 

As you know, this metal stuff is so much fun and the possibilities are almost endless. I'm really looking forward to the challenge of the auxiliary tank, and definitely going to "borrow" a few of your techniques Peter

 

Hopefully some more progress soon.

 

Cheers,

 

Craig 

[brahman104]

Mr. Wizard.  Over the top work, Craig.  All truly remarkable.  Ingenious skill-sets.  Bravo!

 

Sincerely,

Mark

 

 

Thanks very much Mark! Try as I may though, I can't make plumbing like you  Any more progress on that Mustang of yours?

Edited January 24, 2017 by brahman104

[TKB]

Craig,

 

Your "in progress" photos remind me of looking at Boeing "production line" photos!

 

And to think you started this build as "Refining the Face"!

 

Beating the nose issue is getting to be the least (but still very impressive) of your "refinements"!

 

Simply astounding and inspiring work bringing the "D" to life.

Without a doubt, you will have a "one of a kind" when you're finished with her.

 

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Thanks Terry!

 

In all honesty, maybe I've gotten a little out of hand with the bay, but it's all been good fun. Learning new skills and practicing new techniques. I'm absolutely loving working with metal; its sharpness, the ability to emboss details into it and the lack of painting required are all big bonuses for me.

 

I know I still have a long way to go, but I'm really looking forward to skinning the outside.... that is when I feel it will really start to come to life, if Peter's spitfire build is anything to go by!

 

So here's a question for the masses: we all know the main production (E model and beyond) aircraft had a manufacturing break behind the radio room, allowing for production in two parts. I'm thinking the C/D's, being more "hand made" were actually built as one piece from nose to tail.

 

So what does that mean? Once I go to skinning the outside I'm looking to do overlapping panels, and to do this properly, I have to start from the bottom, at the very rear, and work my way forward and up.

 

Would everyone agree that for the D I would have to start from the absolute tail, rather than behind the radio room? It does seem like a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, but I feel it will have an impact on the overall look.

 

Thoughts???????

 

Craig

[airscale]

Hi Craig

 

One thing I learnt about overlapping panels is that they are easy to do if the panels are not compound curves. The problem if they are is that the panel needs annealing to get it to conform to the curvature of the model. Once annealed, as you know, the metal is very soft and as it is burnished down over the panel it overlaps, it will conform to the ridge of the panel it is sitting over giving a stepped effect. I have tried feathering the edge of the panel I am overlapping but even that still leaves a visible ridge if not REALLY feathered in with hard sanding.

 

As I think you also plan to do raised mushroom rivets, there is a danger that any detail will be wiped out in the course of feathering, and in fact thinking about it, it will be very difficult to create a compound curve panel with embossed detail as it will need to be embossed after forming the shape - at which point it will be soft and easily distort.

 

That said, the B17 is a big beast, and it may be that most of the panels are flat anyway so this won't be a problem if you stick to stock, stiff panels without annealing

 

Certainly, you will need to start with the lowest lying panel (bottom of fuselage skinning?) and work from there so it will be worth maybe colour coding a plan with what are the different layers so you get all the bottom skins down first - one big plus is that you don't need to be super accurate in aligning panel to panel as they don't need to sit next to each other, but the lower panels will need to be bigger all round to feather the step between panels where one sits on top of another..

 

either way, you will have a great time, and the first one you lay down will be a monumental moment and hugely satisfying

 

tuning in for every update

 

Peter  

[dodgem37]

'Any more progress on that Mustang of yours?'

I've had a couple of posts in the last month.  For the most part I'm just trying to solve some painting problems.

 

Thank you for asking.

Sincerely,

Mark

[williamj]

    What an incredible engineering project...overcoming and solving everything along the way...beautiful.  

[brahman104]

Thank you for your very in depth response there Peter! Some really good food for thought with what you've experienced; quite a few things I hadn't actually considered yet. I think I might have to do some playing around on a sacrificial piece ( I happen to know of a spare g model rear fuselage.......) I see what you mean about the feathering.

 

I've been pondering the problem of how to apply rivets to an annealed and formed panel for some time. One of the concepts I was thinking of has been to take a cast of the reverse of the panel or area to be done. This will be very time consuming, but has the distinct advantage that I would have a "blank" to form the metal over, independent of any other panel, which will also provide support to rivet the rear of that panel. I believe this would work, I just have to put it into practice. I feel that, as you said, not every panel would require such an approach, mainly just those with the peskiest of compound curves.....

 

Thank you again for sharing your vast experience on the subject, and stay tuned for some experimentation

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[Guyman1]

Beautiful work here Craig it is a combination of art ,engineering and modelling you really have put a new face on this kit really looking forward to the next chapter in this build.

 

Guy

[TKB]

Craig,

 

Good catch about there not seeming to be a physical break at Bulkhead #6 on the early models, compared to E,F and G.

 

Looking back through photos of early Forts under construction and haven't come across one where the fuselage is separate components, so it seems the "skeleton" was assembled and then skinned.

Guess that method of construction would't have been very efficient with mass production, especially with BVD having different assembly line setups..

 

Always something new to learn about B-17s!

 

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Thanks for the backup Terry! I think I'm on the right track too; I also went back and had another look at any pic I had of the Swoose around the bathtub area and there doesn't seem to be a definitive break of the fuselage panels. And you're right, every single shark tail fuselage photo I've seen has them in one piece.

 

Having said that, we all know the Swoose to be made up of two separate aircraft, so it could be that the "skeleton" bolts onto the rear of #6, and the new skin is "feathered" in around the area to give added strength. 

 

Whatever the case may be, the fuselage of the Swoose doesn't show it, so that's how mine will be. It makes you wonder though, the miracles the engineering guys must have pulled under extreme duress in those early days of the war to cobble bits of planes together to get anything flying. Total and utter respect to them!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig,

 

A couple of the photos of the "Swoose" restoraton work show the aft fuselage cleanly separated at I believe Bulkhead #11.

Looking at the Boeing structure profile drawing again, it almost looks like bulkheads were a two-piece setup, that I assume were bolted together to form the full bulkhead structure and tie the entire fuselage together.

 

At Bulkhead #6, the skinning does indeed look more like a lap joint then a butt joint.

 

Obviously "mix-and-matching" early Fortress components would have been more time consuming then with the E-F-G.

As you said, it is amazing what those guys accomplished back then with a "make do with what you got" mindset.

Wouldn't fit in to well with today's "throw-away" mentality!

 

So, bottom line is I think you correct in your skinning observations.

 

Just another important detail that's going to make your "D" a standout.

 

 

Terry

[Guest Peterpools]

Craig

Where do I send the doctor bills? The last few update were the tip of the iceberg, simply incredible work and you knocked me out; resulting in falling right off the chair.

Brilliant work and what a joy to follow

Keep 'em coming

Peter

Edited January 29, 2017 by Peterpools

[Citadelgrad]

I must say, although the skill on display in this build is...demoralizing to someone of limited abilities, like me, i cant get enough of this project.

 

The neatness of the scratch built details, perfect right angles, smoothness, it just looks...perfect.

 

Thanks for sharing this with others. Good luck on the build, not that you appear to need luck to get amazing results.

[brahman104]

Craig

Where do I send the doctor bills? The last few update were the tip of the iceberg, simply incredible work and you knocked me out; resulting in falling right off the chair.

Brilliant work and what a joy to follow

Keep 'em coming

Peter

 

Hahaha, surely that would put us on even terms then Peter, as that's what I do every time I see one of your updates! The mozzie turned out beautifully.... I'd like to try my hand at one someday.

 

I must say, although the skill on display in this build is...demoralizing to someone of limited abilities, like me, i cant get enough of this project.

 

The neatness of the scratch built details, perfect right angles, smoothness, it just looks...perfect.

 

Thanks for sharing this with others. Good luck on the build, not that you appear to need luck to get amazing results.

 

Thanks very much mate. I'm hoping that far from demoralising others, that my efforts here may encourage others to push the boundaries of their own skills, which is what I try to do with every build I do. I'm really glad to hear you're enjoying following on, I hope you'll continue to join me in this journey

 

So a tiny little bit of progress, but it could have some big implications for the path I'll take on the remainder of the build. For a while now I have mulled over how to make the many, many ribs that are highly visible throughout the fuselage.

 

You might recall that last year I made a little roller on the printer to experiment with this very concept. I felt at the time that although it had potential, it still needed refinement.

 

Jump forward to now, and I needed to add the small ribs that will bridge the top section or "roof" of the bomb bay. First of all I thought of making a styrene form over which I could shape annealed litho and then cut the pieces to shape. 

 

 

 

Despite initially looking promising, the shape just proved too hard to clean up and apply decent looking rivet detail to.

 

Anyway, I decided to give the roller another go, as these were only short sections I felt I could stop the piece from warping too much.

 

 

 

I applied the rivets first, as you can see, then put the piece through the roller. After a little practice it was actually fairly quick to do.

 

 

And before too long I had 10 little ribs. Now it's just a case of rolling the roof section to shape and attaching them. Unfortunately, I have run out of time this weekend to do it, but hopefully I'll have some more progress short for you soon

 

Bottom line is, I feel that with some continued refinement to the roller, I will be able to produce some decent ribs of infinite length and curvature to detail not only under the cockpit, but also the entire length of the rear fuselage. Yes it will take a while, but it's all progress!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig