Derek B Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hello All, As you may be aware, apart from the usual smaller AM resin detail items that I am producing, I also have a number of conversions that are in various stages of development at this moment in time. One of the continual concerns in my mind is the eventual cost to both myself, and ultimately, the modellers, to produce such sets. In addition to costs, there is also the limitation in weight, and therefore size, that resin imposes. If it is possible to produce very thin wall thickness resin castings in a large size (without any moulding or surface blemish failures), then there is a high percentage risk of warpage present which will require very careful heat straightening treatment or some form of solid substrate to wrap around to restore the shape. Because of the above, I am reconsidering the use of vacform plastic for the larger areas of any conversion set whilst retaining resin parts for the remainder. I know that many modellers are averse to vacform in general, but a great deal of that is related to full kits that are only engineered to provide the modeller with a very basic - but in most cases accurate - shape to work from, the modeller being expected to provide all of the remaining parts by their own means. A well designed, engineered and executed vacform part is a completely different story altogether though. A good example of this is the Echelon Lightning and Hunter kits. Using female moulds would enable parts to be accurate in shape whilst still retaining good surface detail and finish. The plastic material would be compatible with the kit plastic and be warp-free and lightweight - just what is needed for large scale areas. Additionally, apart from a whole replacement fuselage, we would only be looking at replacing parts of an existing IM kit fuselage or wing mostly, so there should be no nightmare scenarios for those who worry about having to sand vacform fuselage and wing trailing edges to correct dimensions. From both a commercial and retail cost and weight point of view, it makes good sense to me whilst allowing me maximum flexibility for my conversion options...What do you as modellers think to this approach?... Many thanks Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Makes huge sense to me - and I'm one of those that prefers good quality vac to resin anyway... Funnily enough - thinking this route on some of the Lightning stuff last weekend: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=49540&view=findpost&p=976056 Iain Edited February 29, 2012 by 32SIG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I have no problem with large areas being made of vacuform. I have a couple questions, though: 1) Does this mean that the price will be much lower than if the entire model conversion was made of resin? 2) How soon will your conversion of the Ju-87B to the Ju-87A be ready for marketing? The Annie calls for almost an entire fuselage change. Vacuform is fine with me. Even the wide pants in vacuform is fine with me. Hows that for a segway into making an Annie conversion? I bet you didn't even know that you were doing an Annie conversion. Good thing I was here to remind you. 3) As long as we are segwaying here, how about a conversion of the Hasegawa or Revell Zero into the Kate and Val? Am I stretching things here a bit? Well, yes I am. But what the heck, you will be doing 80 to 90% vacuform anyway on a model like this. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Makes huge sense to me - and I'm one of those that prefers good quiality vac to resin anyway... Funnily enough -thinking this route on some of the Lightning stuff last weekend: http://www.britmodel...ndpost&p=976056 Iain I can see that we both are walking down this same path Iain. I read your posts in your BM link and there are obviously some mixed feelings - which is what I am largely expecting here also. As for the point that is made on the BM forums about trying to reproduce rivets in vacform, I think that we will not know the answer fully until it is tried? (I think that on occasions, modellers get a little hung up about rivet detail - you certainly cannot see them on Lightnings unless you are very close to them, and certainly not at a representative scale 32 feet away!...however, they do look pretty on a model, which may be the main driver here? ). Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I'd probably stay clear of rivets - but as we know - quite sharp surface detail can be incorporated. I believe biggest downside is making the female patterns as they need to be resistant to a certain amount of heat IIRC - but I haven't tried it yet. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) I have no problem with large areas being made of vacuform. I have a couple questions, though: 1) Does this mean that the price will be much lower than if the entire model conversion was made of resin? 2) How soon will your conversion of the Ju-87B to the Ju-87A be ready for marketing? The Annie calls for almost an entire fuselage change. Vacuform is fine with me. Even the wide pants in vacuform is fine with me. Hows that for a segway into making an Annie conversion? I bet you didn't even know that you were doing an Annie conversion. Good thing I was here to remind you. 3) As long as we are segwaying here, how about a conversion of the Hasegawa or Revell Zero into the Kate and Val? Am I stretching things here a bit? Well, yes I am. But what the heck, you will be doing 80 to 90% vacuform anyway on a model like this. Stephen You are just too funny Stephen!...Although you do make some very good points ( Hmmm...Anything is possible?)... At this stage - and this is only a guess - I would say yes, the retail cost of a potential conversion set/kit containing vacform parts should be cheaper, but exactly by how much, I cannot estimate? Cheers Derek Edited March 1, 2012 by Derek B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) I'd probably stay clear of rivets - but as we know - quite sharp surface detail can be incorporated. I believe biggest downside is making the female patterns as they need to be resistant to a certain amount of heat IIRC - but I haven't tried it yet. Iain In my experience (which is makibg female vacform master patterns for over 25 years), not any more than you would expect from resin master patterns that are subjected to both heat and vacuum? The only heat that the vacform master patterns will see is that of the exotherm as the resin sets, and this is largely controlled by the type and mix of the resin used to make the moulding tool - releasing the parts from the cured resin tool tends to create more damage to the master pattern parts than the curing heat! Derek Edited February 29, 2012 by Derek B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Sorry - meant female tool Derek! <sorry - being numpty tonight> Presume there are specific resins used to withstand contact with the heated plastic sheet? Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Sorry - meant female tool Derek! <sorry - being numpty tonight> Presume there are specific resins used to withstand contact with the heated plastic sheet? Iain Indeed Iain, there are, but I could not tell you what they are nor which is best? I will most likely seek the advice of a vacform company that specialise in such things (for this, I have CMA in mind as my primary source). Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnarg Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Back in the day, if you wanted a good WWI kit, you were stuck with vac. They made some pretty nice kits with great detail, even in vac. If you looked at the original MPM kits of something like an Avia B-35 or a Polikarpov I-16 in 1/48 scale from 20+ years ago, they met or beat the quality of resin kits in that scale, and were much easier to deal with due to the weight issues. Of course, there were some truly awful lumps of plastic, not worth anything besides the time to throw them in the trash, but the good ones were very fine. Like anything, it required true effort by the creator. I would have absolutely no problem with modifications to vac form kit parts in 1/32, especially the larger sections of the kit. For example, on that Ju-87A conversion (that Stephen confirmed you must be working on), you could do a lot of the parts in vac and even get away with rivet detail in the parts. They could easily exceed the quality of many of the injection molded kit rivets (excepting the best of the best). Put me down for a couple of those Antons (Ju-87A's). The Spanish Civil War has too many interesting subjects. Tnarg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 For example, on that Ju-87A conversion (that Stephen confirmed you must be working on), you could do a lot of the parts in vac and even get away with rivet detail in the parts. They could easily exceed the quality of many of the injection molded kit rivets (excepting the best of the best). Tnarg Please, I did not "confirm" that he will make the Ju-87A. I am just trying to nudge him into doing it. I'm in enough trouble already. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Back in the day, if you wanted a good WWI kit, you were stuck with vac. They made some pretty nice kits with great detail, even in vac. If you looked at the original MPM kits of something like an Avia B-35 or a Polikarpov I-16 in 1/48 scale from 20+ years ago, they met or beat the quality of resin kits in that scale, and were much easier to deal with due to the weight issues. Of course, there were some truly awful lumps of plastic, not worth anything besides the time to throw them in the trash, but the good ones were very fine. Like anything, it required true effort by the creator. I would have absolutely no problem with modifications to vac form kit parts in 1/32, especially the larger sections of the kit. For example, on that Ju-87A conversion (that Stephen confirmed you must be working on), you could do a lot of the parts in vac and even get away with rivet detail in the parts. They could easily exceed the quality of many of the injection molded kit rivets (excepting the best of the best). Put me down for a couple of those Antons (Ju-87A's). The Spanish Civil War has too many interesting subjects. Tnarg Thank you for your thoughts Grant...why do I get the feeling that I am being pressured into making a Ju 87A conversion (now, if someone is willing to provide me with a Hasegawa Stuka kit and some reference, that may well be a completely different matter altogether! - they are are pretty though! ). Seriously though, in the main, you are correct Grant about your ascertions with regard to the quality of vacform kits. Cheers Derek Edited March 1, 2012 by Derek B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnarg Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Let's just say I will buy one of your Me-163 conversions when you make it, and more of those "thingies" that go with it that remain unmentioned lately, and when a lot more of us do that, maybe we will see some other good stuff as well. Thanks for the hard work to make it happen. Sorry to misrepresent you Stephen. I hope you knew it was all in jest, but we are both trying to nudge Derek in the "right" direction. Tnarg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironman1945 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Derek Im totally in favour of Vac conversions. I have a few resin conversions and kits, but after seeing a really well done large scale resin kit of a friend have its wings warp while he set it out of its case while dusting........it only stayed in the sunlight for about 30 minutes....resin...or at lease a full resin kit.... scares the heck out of me. Dave/Ironman1945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_Mike Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 BF2C-1 back to F-11 Goshawk?? ....after the Anton of course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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