Derek B Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 I've always wondered why no one made a vac conversion of a P-47D Razorback for the Hasegawa kit? How simple a conversion and it would sure beat the cost of that horrid Trump kit. Good point there Wrangler - that could be done in either resin or vacform without too much hassle IMHO? Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOTR Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 That'd be enough. I think, I'm done with ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSP_K2 Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 That'd be enough. I think, I'm done with ... You built two 727's? How big? What schemes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Ah, okay. I thought about laminating glass fibre over a master, and reinforce that to reduce flexing. Would also depend on the size of the master, I suppose... For larger aircraft I would make a mold and then use ultralight fiberglass cloth. But, I would include a rigid carbon fiber tube as an inner spar. That would give us the strength we need to keep the wing from sagging. I firmly believe in hand laying the fiberglass to get the fuselages and wings and the like. As a matter of fact, I prefer fiberglass, even Bondo (filled polyester or epoxy resin) over the resins now in use for casting these models. I simply do not like the casting resins because the fuselages and wings are brittle and tend to warp. Small thick parts come out fine because they are thick enough to resist breaking and warping. For the same reason I hate those little plastic pitot tubes and radar antennae that come in the im kits. They are just too easy to break off when handling them. Since I am a klutz I make my models and my sculpture to be strong enough to resist my ham fisted handling. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOTR Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hm, actually, I don't want to highjack Derek's thread. A large scale 727 is an idea that is spinning around in my head for quite some time. But at the momentits rather in the stage of "how can it be done" instead of actually building one. For that project, I need to get into some stuff different from what I've done so far, and a few new tools. A scrollsaw is the least thing I can think off. Why two? Because I can't really decide. At first, I wanted to go with the older scheme of Lloyd Aereo Boliviano, with the generous use of blue and red. LAB 727-100 But lately, some classic colours of aviation, and an important piece of German history came into my focus: the Pan Am Clippers serving the West Berlin transit during the Cold War. Pan Am wasn't the only airline allowed to fly to West Berlin, but certainly the most important. Tempelhof approach A 727-100 and a 727-200 should be a good excuse to build two... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Hm, actually, I don't want to highjack Derek's thread. No problem Michael - it's all about ideas and learning Nice 727's (brings back memories for me). If you are contemplating large scale for these two beauties, then I would personally certainly consider following the methods that the RC aircraft guys use to produce their larger GRP flying models, but as your's would not fly, the stressing would be a great deal less critical. (BTW, if you are going for two different length fuselages, it would be prudent to start with the longest and cut the second one down to suit - but I sure that you already have this covered?). Cheers Derek Edited March 1, 2012 by Derek B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I typically avoid Vacs. Parts are usually pretty flimsy, and I don't like having to try to cut a part off a sheet and then get large parts sanded back into the correct shape. I think a pour stub is easy to cut off and have the correctly shaped part, versus the need to sand the entire mating surface of a large part like a wing or fuselage halve. If you were to use thick plastic as mentioned previously, and have the parts ready to use (versus having to cut them off a sheet) like most resin parts are nowadays, I would probably give it a try, as it would indeed be very close to regular injection molded parts. And, finally, my preference is ease-of-use over cost every time (accuracy being equal). Thanks, Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kagemusha Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) Sounds like an elegant solution Derek, if you take a look at the Catalina in progress with HpH http://amg.cdc.cz/kat109.html the fuselage is formed with a female mould albeit using some sort of fibre glass, and the detail is superb. Maybe you should try this out on a smaller conversion first... Having seen the AdAstra decals I don't think markings will be a problem, just which plane to model! Edited March 1, 2012 by Kagemusha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOTR Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 No problem Michael - it's all about ideas and learning Nice 727's (brings back memories for me). If you are contemplating large scale for these two beauties, then I would personally certainly consider following the methods that the RC aircraft guys use to produce their larger GRP flying models, but as your's would not fly, the stressing would be a great deal less critical. (BTW, if you are going for two different length fuselages, it would be prudent to start with the longest and cut the second one down to suit - but I sure that you already have this covered?). Cheers Derek Hm, during the lecture on a book about racecar aerodynamics, the thought of creating the fuselage from G/CRP came to me as well. More investigation needed... For a vacform, my thought was to divide the fuselage in 3 sections, one for the forward fuselage, one covering the center fuselage including wingroot and one for the tail, and take away a little material for the shorter version. That is taking into account that my supplyer offers only 25cm x50 cm styrene sheets... ...there is still a lot of thinking and research neccessary, before I can actually begin... ...I think I start by scratching a '70s Pan Am trolley dolley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I've always wondered why no one made a vac conversion of a P-47D Razorback for the Hasegawa kit? How simple a conversion and it would sure beat the cost of that horrid Trump kit. The reason is that the resin and silicone costs one heck of a lot of money. The molds do not last indefinitely, and how many people, besides you, will want to buy that particular resin conversion. The minimum price would be at least $50 if the maker of the conversion is to break even, Also he would have to sell a number of these just to get his money back on the materials. And how about his profit? He is not making these things out of the goodness of his heart. You see the problem is that a lot of modelers want things. but they do not have the experience or knowledge for them to understand about the cost of materials, the costs of other goodies, like instructions, shipping boxes, packing materials, etc. and the time and effort of the manufacturer who is usually just another modeler himself, working out of his garage. The final factor is how many people will actually spend the money necessary for the conversion kit. My friend Dave Thompson learned the hard way that although many guys on the forums may say that they will buy the kit as soon as he makes it, the reality is that most of them are tire kickers. They talk a big story but when it comes to shelling out their own money for it they disappear back into the woodwork from which they came. Their eyes are bigger than their wallets. Frankly, I am surprised that Derek is thinking of making these models which are part vacuform part resin because it sounds like he will have to ask a pretty penny for them, and then he may not sell very many at all. You see, a vacuform requires that the modeler be able to cut the part out of the sheet and then sand it to get it to fit. Since most modelers have never done any original modeling work their whole lives the thought of cutting even a flat panel out of a flat piece of plastic terrifies them. It is not their fault, they have never worked with wood models or plastic vacuforms so they have no experience at all. All they know is that you buy a plastic injection molded kit where all the parts are there and all you have to do is glue the parts in place, maybe with a little sanding at the mold lines. If I ever get my 1/32 HP Heyford done I'll make up more kits of them If any one wants to buy one I'll give a detailed description with lots of photos showing what he will get for his money and then I will ask for a 50% non-refundable down payment before I'll even cast another kit for him. Harsh terms? Too bad but I do not do money making work for the fun of it. If the buyer wants his money back he can return the kit and I'll refund half what he paid - the first half is non-refundable, remember? So I wont sell too many kits this way? Suits me fine. By the way, Derek, I withdraw my request for the 1/32 Ju-87A conversion. If an entire kit is coming out in 1/32 injection molded plastic then I wound not want you to issue your conversion a week before or after the one made by the big company. Like that delightful lady on Saturday Night Live used to say, "Never mind." Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I typically avoid Vacs. Parts are usually pretty flimsy, and I don't like having to try to cut a part off a sheet and then get large parts sanded back into the correct shape. I think a pour stub is easy to cut off and have the correctly shaped part, versus the need to sand the entire mating surface of a large part like a wing or fuselage halve. If you were to use thick plastic as mentioned previously, and have the parts ready to use (versus having to cut them off a sheet) like most resin parts are nowadays, I would probably give it a try, as it would indeed be very close to regular injection molded parts. And, finally, my preference is ease-of-use over cost every time (accuracy being equal). Thanks, Doug Thanks for your input Doug. It's all in the engineering of the kit (which I always try to make as logical and easy as possible). Pre-cut parts are probably best reserved for full vacform kits, but it all largely depends upon how much vacform there is? Regards Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Sounds like an elegant solution Derek, if you take a look at the Catalina in progress with HpH http://amg.cdc.cz/kat109.html the fuselage is formed with a female mould albeit using some sort of fibre glass, and the detail is superb. Maybe you should try this out on a smaller conversion first... Having seen the AdAstra decals I don't think markings will be a problem, just which plane to model! Thanks Andy - I agree with you, and I will try it out on a smaller conversion kit first. (BTW, awesome 262 - I love it!). Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 By the way, Derek, I withdraw my request for the 1/32 Ju-87A conversion. If an entire kit is coming out in 1/32 injection molded plastic then I wound not want you to issue your conversion a week before or after the one made by the big company. Like that delightful lady on Saturday Night Live used to say, "Never mind." Stephen For the majority of the so called 'cottage industries' that we are, I would say that your appreciation is more or less correct (sounds like you have already been there yourself?). As for the Ju 87A, it does sound like one may be on the way in 1/32 (well see?), however, as Radu said, this is not the case not in 1/24 scale! Cheers Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Hm, during the lecture on a book about racecar aerodynamics, the thought of creating the fuselage from G/CRP came to me as well. More investigation needed... For a vacform, my thought was to divide the fuselage in 3 sections, one for the forward fuselage, one covering the center fuselage including wingroot and one for the tail, and take away a little material for the shorter version. That is taking into account that my supplyer offers only 25cm x50 cm styrene sheets... ...there is still a lot of thinking and research neccessary, before I can actually begin... ...I think I start by scratching a '70s Pan Am trolley dolley Just a suggestion here Michael, but it would probably be cost effective for you to let Tigger (John Wilkes) use his industrial sized sheets and vacform equipment do all the hard work for you - all you need do is provide him with the pattern shapes to pull over? (balsa wood would work well here). Derek (P.S. A 1/32 Pan-Am trolley dolley scratch build would be well worth watching!) Edited March 2, 2012 by Derek B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 For the majority of the so called 'cottage industries' that we are, I would say that your appreciation is more or less correct (sounds like you have already been there yourself?). As for the Ju 87A, it does sound like one may be on the way in 1/32 (well see?), however, as Radu said, this is not the case not in 1/24 scale! Cheers Derek Well, I personally have not ventured into running a cottage industry, yet. But my father had a factory for many years. I have been working in industries of various types for almost all my adult life (I'm a draftsman/designer), Dave Thompson and I used to talk on the phone 3 - 5 times a week and he related all the problems he was having with his cottage industry, and I have a friend who lives about an hour away and he had been producing resin casts for many years now. Thus, although all my info on running a small company is second hand I have learned enough to know that it has to be a labor of love because one is really not going to make much money at it. Now, as to the 1/24 Ju-87A conversion kit, I will buy one from you if you ever make it. That would look great in 1/24. Problem is, there is so much to change! It is not a simple conversion, it is more like 50% new parts. Whatever you decide to do, the best of luck to you, Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now