Calling all F-4 Phantom experts- need info on 559 TFS Nam 1966

[Jerry M]

Hallo and Good Day,

Gents,  I am looking for some info/explanation how one can trace particular aircraft from NAM. I would like to build particular F-4C from 559 TFS Cam Rahn AB around fall / winter 1966. So far was able to locate airframe number but I am not sure what Squadron letters should I apply. Some of F-4C ( on pics from Cam Rahn  )  had no code letters on vertical stabilize at all. Also this airframe was before in 557 then 558 and finally 559. Is there any chance of getting a confirmation on correct tail code ? My search for this F4C shows that it should have AF 37   XT608 but how can one be sure before I slap wrong codes on my finished Phantom? Any help or hint or link would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

J.M.

[Finn]

Some F-4 Cam Rahn Bay pics here:

 

https://imodeler.com/2018/10/f-4c-cam-ranh-bay-s-vietnam/

 

Jari

[cmayer]

Hi Jerry -

The late 1966 period at Cam Ranh Bay is a really interesting time to model. Tail codes were quite new in fall '66; and the 559 TFS were using the "XN" tail code, with a blue fin cap. In addition, the 559th guys weren't yet using the standard circular squadron patch emblem on the intake, and had a white silhouette stencil of their charging goat motif, as seen in the attached photo, from the Ron Picciani site. This same aircraft, 64-0793, is also in the end-of-runway shot from the Kittinger collection on i-Modeler, on the link that Jari posted above...(that photo collection is a great reference for these 12 TFW Cam Ranh Bay airplanes in late 1966-early 1967, when his dad was flying combat missions there, and he brought his camera with him)...

 

I wasn't able to find any photos of 63-7608; but if you have a photo of it with an "XT" tail code, that would correspond to being assigned to the 391 TFS (yellow fin cap, from 1966-1968...then the 558 TFS took over the XT tail code/yellow fin cap); and if it had been also assigned to the 557 TFS while they had tail codes, the 557th tail code was "XC," with a red fin cap; and the 558 TFS tail code was "XD" with an olive green fin cap.

 

From Joe Baugher's web site (link: http://www.forgottenjets.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/F-4USAF.html) on F-4C airframe histories by serial number:

McDonnell F-4C-20-MC Phantom II/63-7608

• Delivered to the United States Air Force.
• USAF 558th TFS (12th TFW).
• USAF 557th TFS (12th TFW).
• 1966: USAF 559th TFS (12th TFW).
• 12/3/1966: Shot down by an SA-2 near Yen Bai, North Vietnam. Or on 12/2/1966?

So, according to Joe's records, that airframe was lost on Dec 2/Dec 3, 1966...and as you alluded to, it may not have had a tail code applied while it was assigned in the 558 TFS or 557 TFS, if it was prior to ~Aug/Sep 1966 (when tail codes were mostly applied)...

 - If this jet was part of the 559 TFS in Nov/Dec 1966, I think you are safe with an "XN" tail code; and tail number presentation of "AF/37" in black 6" characters, and "608" in light gray/white 15" numbers; and I would try to replicate the white silhouette stencil of the 559 TFS billy goat for the squadron marking on the intake, and use a royal blue fin cap...

 

Other important notes for modeling these early F-4Cs:

 - The F-4Cs in-theater from 1965-1968 all had the "early" Martin Baker Mk H5 ejection seats, which had the soft-shell parachute pack, mounted within a metal shroud at the top of the ejection seat...this is a noticeably different profile than the later/more commonly recognized Mk H7 seats, with the plastic parachute packs, seen after ca. 1968.

 - The SEA camouflage was hurriedly-applied in early 1966; they only applied the three-color camouflage colors on the upper surfaces, over the original/factory-applied light gull gray and full-sized USAF and National Insignia markings, with two-tone green and tan, with minimal stencils, limited only to the safety warnings, like ejection seat triangles and canopy jettison placards, and the smaller 15" national insignia on the fuselage and upper left wing;

   -- To save time and effort, they originally left the undersides of these airplanes in the original, factory-gloss white paint; over-spraying the "USAF" under the left wing, and the 45" national insignia under the right wing with flat-white paint; and placing the tactical, 15" national insignia under the right outer wing panels...[if you look closely at the walk-around photos on the i-Modeler link Jari posted, above, you can clearly see the original factory stenciling on the glossy white undersides of those airframes].

 - The vast majority of these airplanes did *not* yet have the APR-25/26 RHAW systems installed; so they did *NOT* have the little acorn antenna on the aft edge of the fin cap; and their radomes had the short, aluminum dummy cap on the IR fairing; or, they had the "slick" radome with no IR-fairing at all (see the radome on 64-0793, above).

  -- The RHAW system installation began (TCTO approval was signed) in November 1966...so during the period from Nov 66 through ~April 67, you see a lot of variations on the radomes; 64-0793, photo above, was a Block-23 F-4C; and it was delivered with the original radome with the short dummy cap on the IR fairing (No USAF F-4Cs were delivered with an actual AAA-4 IRST system; but they still had the IR-fairing, aka, "donkey dick," as a hold-over from the Navy F-4B production, except for the last two production blocks, Blocks 24 and 25 were delivered with the "slick" radomes, without the IR-fairing, as seen on 0793, above); so for whatever reasons, you see photos of many of these early F-4Cs with slick radomes, even if they were originally delivered with the Navy-style IR-fairing...until the fleet was fitted with the APR-25 RHAW, which used the space within that IR-fairing for the forward RHAW antenna, with a longer, rounded cap fitting, that was about a third longer than the original dummy IR-cap....

 - The early block F-4Cs (Block-15 through Block-23) were delivered with the original Navy inner pylon, formally known as the "LAU-17" missile launcher; the LAU-17 had the straight leading edge, and pointy-shaped forward profile, in contrast to the rounded bomb rack pylons that the Air Force used, starting with the Block-24/Block-25 F-4Cs and F-4Ds (these last two F-4C production blocks overlapped as the first two production blocks for the fully-USAF designed F-4D...so the inner pylons and radomes were aligned with Air Force requirements); so the LAU-17 required an adaptor in order to hold a triple-ejector rack (TER) and associated bomb load...some great close-up examples of these configurations on the Navy-style pylon and adaptors on that i-Modeler link from Jari, as well...

 - Because they applied these first camouflage jobs directly over the light gull gray paint, without full/proper paint prep, the camouflage greens and tan paint finishes faded and wore off/peeled off quickly...so you also see lots of patch-paint work to cover peeled camouflage paint, with whatever greens or browns the ground crews could procure while in-country (or in Thailand, for the Ubon and Udorn units)...so you see lots of non-standard olive drab or chocolate browns, spray-can painted on these aircraft, like you see the olive drab patch-up area on the left intake on 0793, above...

 - During the initial deployments from 1965-1970, these jets were flown with crews of two rated pilots (not a pilot up front and a rated navigator/weapons system officer/WSO in the back seat); so the front seaters were formally known as "Aircraft Commanders," and the rear seaters were formally known as "Pilot System Operators" (PSO); and informally referred to as the "Guy In Back" (GIB); so the iModeler link Jari posted shows photos taken by the author's dad, who was a rated pilot, even though he started out in the back seat, and was responsible for all the weapons pre-flight inspections and weapons employment

 - During 1965 and 1966, the 12 TFW did a mix of all the Phantom mission types; but after 1966, the 12 TFW units at CRAB were principally focused on close-air support (CAS) missions for ground units operating in Vietnam; then later they also did work on counter-insurgency movements along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos and Cambodia...so you see mainly a lot of varying bomb load configurations, rather than a focus on air-to-air missiles...so it was common to see 2x AIM-7s loaded as an air-to-air defense capability; but then lots of bombs/CBU/rockets/napalm configurations for the air-to-ground and CAS mission focus...

 

Hope this is helpful to your research. Be glad to fill in any other details if I have reliable data to support...

 

Good Hunting!

Chris Mayer

 

 

Edited January 8 by cmayer

[Finn]

Here is 609:

 

 

Jari

[Jerry M]

Hi Chris, Hi Jari,
Dear Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to answer and share your knowledge in regards to early F4C’s it’s truly appreciated on this end. I did not inspect to find so much information in just first two posts of the day. Also thank you for link to Greg’s Dad foto collection- quite interesting and good to work with cause there are no water marks obstructing details. To be frank I came a cross family member of one of the pilots of mentioned F4C and decided to gather available info and build exact replica- still in the process of deciding which scale should I go with 1/32 [ if so Tamiya or Revell ] or 1/48 [ Eduard or Gunze Sangyo ] ? So I am collecting all available information pictures drawings Ect. Very helpful points about early F4C pylons and early ejection seats. 
BTW: that airframe from 559 TFS  on the fateful day was doing top cover for Electronic Warfare Bomber EB 66 when at 19000 feet received Russian SAM 2 rocket between the pipes and second one exploded just below almost burning first pilot alive. So my question to you is;

 on such anti MiG run they should carry Sidewinder / Sparrow missiles but heard that Phantoms  we are not typically “cleared”  for Sparrows until late 1967! Also centerline gun pod was a nuisance and often when aircraft got in flat spin it was unrecoverable due to that gun pod hanging out on the bottom. 
Regards,

JM

P.S. 
I am old fossil, I still can’t figure out how to post photos here ( assume I need third party storage server ) 

[Kagemusha]

Hi Jerry, you are correct you do require a third party server to post photos.

[John1]

Plenty of free photo hosting sites out there.  Pick one and I’m sure we can walk you through the process.  It’s pretty simple.  
 

Regarding C models in Vietnam, I recently wrapped up a nearly year-long build of an early C with the 8th TFW.  It’s a fascinating subject, so many non-standard colors and markings.  If you haven’t done so, check out the Fundekals instructions for their “Wolfpack” decals.   They are amazing.  More of a reference book than standard decal instructions, lots of great info provided.  

[Jerry M]

Hi John,

 

well,thanks for great tip / link to those decals. Indeed instructions booklet is a labor of love on F-4 Wolfpack’s and I noticed that Chris Mayer  has been working on it - So it’s superbly researched. I am leaning towards the Revell ( Germany) 1/32 F4E which I would have to convert backwards to F-4C and perhaps Legend Canopy resin set. Second option is old Tamiya 1/32 F-4C/D. I am aware that both kits are not perfect and need a lot of work to make in to decent representation of the aircraft I have in mind. Eduard or Zouke 1/48 may be a bit to much ( to small ) cause my eyes are not the same as used to be. I am in process of collecting documentation,F-4 kit is on the way from Japan and just ordered 2 books: first one is recollection of the memories of guy who was shot down in that particular incident/airframe and second one  is Andy Evan’s USAF F-4 Phantoms- hopefully it will help me nail down the details and correct camouflage pattern. 
Regards,

JM 

[John1]

I strongly suggest the Tamiya 32nd F-4C, I think it would be a ton of work to convert the Revel kit.    It's got some weirdness but out of the box with no extra work, it still does the job and if you want to add a bit of extra work and/or spend a bit of money, you can correct it's issues pretty easily.    I went through all of that on my build, here's a link if you are interested. 

 

 Ever since that build, I've had a thing for early-war Phantoms, so I hope you'll post pics of your progress once you get going. 

 

 

[MikeMaben]

Hi @Jerry M 

[Jerry M]

Hi Mike ,

Thanks a lot , a lot of knowledgeable folks here for sure. Glad I stumbled upon this forum and got accepted.

Regards,

JM 

[Jerry M]

Hallo Gentlemen, 

    So…pretty quickly Tamiya F-4C/D arrived from Japan and now actually I am scrolling all over  the net to find Martin-Baker MK5 Ejection Seats.
Any tip or link would be greatly appreciated on my end. So far I have found nothing- looks as AIMS is out and I even send them email but no response yet. 
Any other suggestions/ options in regards to MB MK5 ? 
Regards 

JM 

[John1]

4 hours ago, Jerry M said:

Hallo Gentlemen, 

    So…pretty quickly Tamiya F-4C/D arrived from Japan and now actually I am scrolling all over  the net to find Martin-Baker MK5 Ejection Seats.
Any tip or link would be greatly appreciated on my end. So far I have found nothing- looks as AIMS is out and I even send them email but no response yet. 
Any other suggestions/ options in regards to MB MK5 ? 
Regards 

JM 

I think the owner of AIMS frequents LSP.   Maybe someone can put you in touch with him.   I used his MK5's for my build and they are awesome quality, I hope you'll be able to find a them because I don't believe anyone else has this particular variant.   Worst case, I recall that they were replaced by MK7's pretty quickly, maybe just go with a slightly later subject? 

[thierry laurent]

9 hours ago, Jerry M said:

Hallo Gentlemen, 

    So…pretty quickly Tamiya F-4C/D arrived from Japan and now actually I am scrolling all over  the net to find Martin-Baker MK5 Ejection Seats.
Any tip or link would be greatly appreciated on my end. So far I have found nothing- looks as AIMS is out and I even send them email but no response yet. 
Any other suggestions/ options in regards to MB MK5 ? 
Regards 

JM 

Contact BigTim with a PM. He's the current owner of AMS and should be able to help you.

[Jerry M]

Hi Thierry,

Thanks a lot for your help and your tip.

Just Send PM to BigTim … let’s keep fingers crossed. 
Regards,

Jerry M