Airfix 1:24 Ju87B - Airscale Saves the Day-A Great Kit is Waiting

[CraigH]

31 minutes ago, thierry laurent said:

Hi again,

 

I do not have access to my Stuka books right now but found more than enough evidences on my laptop.

 

Look here and you will see a cutaway showing both sections:

 

Then look now where the funnel end is:

Now consider where this would arrive with the high floor.

And now a basic view of the seat support structure:

And finally one cockpit side along the seat support:

 

Look at the oxygen bottle.

 

I have other manual views somewhere but I think this is more than enough to show how the structure was actually built. I also have pictures of the correction I made but cannot find them right now. I know they were posted on LSP years ago. For whatever reason all kits are wrong in that aspect.

 

Hth

 

Thierry

 

P.S. Sorry for the pics size but for whatever reason the were redimensioned by Imgur?!?

Yep I have all these and there's one problem with the lot of 'em. They're subjective, that is they're diagrams from people who've written books about the JU87 after the event, sometimes with only the same evidence we have, therefore it's their own interpretation not documented, contemporary fact. That in turn leads to us making our own assumptions based on what we're presented as "fact" when, in fact LOL, it's not unless backed up by reference. The books are full of such representations.

I had a similar discussion regarding the position of an oil pipe on the Hellcat and whether it sat behind or in front of the bulkhead. Many books written after the event seemed to show it in front but I wasn't convinced. I contacted the US archives and they very kindly sent me a page from the maintenance manual which showed it clearly sat behind the structure. Again, contemporary evidence. You can view it here if you're interested: Hellcat Oil System 

If maintenance manuals from the time are "misleading", people tend to die. A lot. If a research but has misinterpreted or frequently, filled in for evidence that might not exist any more, then people seldom die.

In short, I try my best not to go by interpretations unless there's no other way forward, and then, I accept I may be wrong and have to change. Just look at my Spitfire MkIXe build to see the folly of that!

I try only to use pictorial evidence, which is in itself sometimes subjective unless overwhelming, and contemporary documentation (tech manuals, maintenance manuals and the like) 

 

 

 

 

[CraigH]

13 minutes ago, thierry laurent said:

Look at my last picture in the prior post and you will see there is no floor right under the seat but a beam structure to support the seat mechanism. You cannot add it to a kit without putting the floor where it should be. With regard to the height of the pilot linesight, I do not see how you can see it irrelevant as this is a problem of geometry: If the floor was higher, the internal end of the funnel would need to be higher as well and as it is not parallel to the floor its end would be located closer to the pilot! It would not be anymore between the pedals or its angle with the floor would be different. There is a TM view showing clearly that angle (I can post it if you want). And with regard to the last comment related to why all companies made the same error, this case is far from being an exception! One example jumping  immediately out of my mind: There are dozens of F-4 Phantom kits and aftermarket cockpit tub sets. All of them have a angled rear bulkhead whereas it was close to vertical on the full scale plane... The Ju87 is a badly documented plane regarding its evolution and more particularly the cockpit features (e.g. when the seat types changed between marks?). So, to me this error is not really surprising.

In my view, what you're interpreting as the lack of a floor is the beam or plinth that supports the seat but it must sit on a floor! It's the relative heights of the floor we're discussing not the structure. you state there's one floor running the length of the cockpit, I reckon there's two floors at differering heights, one for the pilot's area, another for the gunner's.

The funnel shenannigans is just circumstantial and irrelevant as is the oxygen bottle position.

The height the pilot sits will be whatever it needs to be to let him do what he needs to do. In fact, the plinth which sits upon the floor, which the seat sits upon, is there for one reason, to allow the pilot TO adjust the seat. To what height doesn't matter a fig and has no bearing on the relative heights of the floor in each section of the cabin.

To illustrate interpretation, here's my take on the photo from a manual which is accurate in relation to the diagram from the same manual regarding seat heights.

I'm happy to debate all day but with documentary evidence not supposition and circumstantial evidence.

[thierry laurent]

That wartime TM view shows it better. It is a Dora but the cockpit structure itself did not change that much.

 

[thierry laurent]

The original one:

 

[CraigH]

2 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

The original one:

 

Those diagrams don't appear in my D manual from 1943. Got doubts

[thierry laurent]

1 hour ago, CraigH said:

Those diagrams don't appear in my D manual from 1943. Got doubts

Alas I saved years ago the interesting pictures out of the manuals. So I cannot give you the reference of the original TM.

[CraigH]

3 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

That wartime TM view shows it better. It is a Dora but the cockpit structure itself did not change that much.

 

On the contrary the cockpit structure changed considerably.

The D-series introduced an aerodynamically refined cockpit with better visibility and SPACE. In addition, armor protection was increased and a new dual-barrel 7.92 mm MG 81Z machine gun with an extremely high rate of fire was installed in the rear defensive position

[CraigH]

6 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

The original one:

 

And lastly on this, cos I'm getting tired, being an old fart now, If you run a line across the base of the plinth, seat support whatever you want to call it on the D, which sits on the floor or is floating in thin air,....it runs above the floor level of the gunner's seat/floor.

 

 

Edited January 31 by CraigH

[thierry laurent]

Well Craig, this is your kit, not mine! You did an exquisite job with regard to details but it simply looks we have a different view on that topic. I will simply agree on the fact we disagree. No worries.

[Cap'n Wannabe]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:51 AM, CraigH said:

By the way, don't get it wrong, as I did initially, and think the kit throttle is correct with two levers (throttle and pitch),it isn't. Peter is right yet again in that there is only the throttle control on that quadrant. What I think is the pitch control, (it translates from the 1939 manual as fuel saving device?) sits above it on the fuselage wall. Strange.

 

If the translation is "fuel saving device" then I suspect it would be mixture control rather than pitch control.  The mixture controls how much fuel is getting to the engine.  Typically the higher you fly, the leaner the mixture, ie the less fuel the engine needs due to the less dense air at altitude.

[CraigH]

49 minutes ago, Cap'n Wannabe said:

If the translation is "fuel saving device" then I suspect it would be mixture control rather than pitch control.  The mixture controls how much fuel is getting to the engine.  Typically the higher you fly, the leaner the mixture, ie the less fuel the engine needs due to the less dense air at altitude.

I agree, I'm a pilot too. Pitch control can be a kind of fuel saving device. The pitch is analogous to gears. Low gear (fine pitch) for power to climb but then at cruise, fine pitch would mean the engine working harder than it has to for the speed it's travelling at, just like driving at 30mph in 1st gear all the time. Of course at cruise, we'd normally knock back revs after setting attitude to be fuel efficient as well.

The problem is the manual is VERY ambiguous and, as "Winkle" Brown commented, a strange plane to fly.

Here for example the usage seems clear (with translation)

 

 

No. 7 is the "airscrew adjustment lever" which would imply some form of pitch control. 

Further on in the manual this arrangement (No.7) is described as the fuel saving device here:

This all seems to imply it's some weird pitch/mixture hybrid, manual or automatic which would make sense in such a specialised AC.

 

There's no other lever anywhere in the AC which could be a pitch control if this is indeed a mixture control. Just bloody glad it doesn't matter and even happier I don't have to fly it!

[CraigH]

3 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

Well Craig, this is your kit, not mine! You did an exquisite job with regard to details but it simply looks we have a different view on that topic. I will simply agree on the fact we disagree. No worries.

Hey Thierry, can't beat a good debate. It'd be boring if we all had the same views. Thanks for your input. Please keep on doing it!

[CraigH]

Hi all

A desperate callout please. 

Does anyone have a copy of the later decal sheet for the JU 87 B2 that Airfix released in about 1991? It has extra decals then the original 1975 version which is the one that Airfix have supplied with the kit, no doubt for authenticity.

Thanks in advance

Craig

[CraigH]

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Posted just now

It's been a while. Redecorating the hall and a little trip to London got in the way and we're off to Portugal on Sunday so I thought I'd better get a little update up on the meagre work I've done in the last few weeks.

Just to top it all off, my laptop (steam driven and I DON'T mean the games platform!) crashed on Saturday last week so I've just finished a re install and putting all my dodgy software back on, just joking Microsoft and Adobe.

So first up, the floor was fastened to the port fuselage. This isn't strictly Airfix instruction manual but I'm figuring it'll pay off later....I think.

 

Next up was to add some general dirt and grime then start to look at the gunner's area.

I'm using the ammo racks from Airscale's kit, of course, and it differs from the kit parts in that there are two extra magazines which fit on the starboard wall which I'll sort later but also the two main racks are considerably larger than the kit parts. So large in fact, I had to take off the rear portion to get a reasonable fit. I may even need to take more. I'm thankful the crew aren't being fitted.

 

The next major issue is the waste cartridge storage bag/box. I've seen so many conflicting images and even the contemporary manuals themselves concerning this damned bag.

This diagram comes from the 1938 manual for the JU 87B

It clearly shows a metal frame with a hessian type bag slung from it, as does this lithograph type picture from the 1939 B1 manual

This also shows the magazines we'll come to later.

But then, same manual, very next picture down the page is this, which approximates the Airfix kit part of more of a metal box affair

If I had hair, I'd be tearin'. I've decided to go with a bag type arrangement as I can't really see how they'd empty the box unless it had a bag inside it.

The Airfix kit has the whole fixture fastened, wrongly, to the stanchion holding the magazine racks in a very flimsy way. 

It does fasten to it but the holder for the bag is much more substantial and bolted to the rear of the fuselage as well. So I fashioned this as a rough approximation.

NOTE: Below the bag, you can see a map holder and a gas mask cannister. I've added them to the fuselage as they aren't in the kit or moulded to the sidewall, and made a scale map from an actual bombing map from August 1940.

It fits here

You'll notice I've done some, hopefully, subtle dirt and grime and grease additions as well as some chipping in worn areas. The wiring's been replaced with real wire and the Morse key added. The red and white bar takes the cables from the rudder pedals aft.

Also corrected is the trailing aerial winch. On the kit it's all one part as here:

Whereas, in actuality, it was split as in the photo

Before fitting the bag structure, I needed to make a little cover for the rear of the fuselage. The kit is very rough and on the real aircraft, it was a much neater arrangement with a few info plates on it. I'll marry everything up when the two sides come together.

 

Next in came the magazines for the rear gun. They're a vast improvement on the kit part, if a bit of a tight squeeze 

They'll be levelled up later of course

Onto the other side. The Airscale kit provides the oxygen bottles for pilot and gunner and the 1939 manual gives us the routing of the oxygen pipes which run to the oxygen filling port on the starboard side of the fuselage. Anything oxygen was blue on Luftwaffe aircraft. The regulators, I chucked together from a couple of bits from the spares box.

The oxygen pipe to the masks is a wire core, wound with thinner wire then covered in shrink tubing and painted olive green. I've scratched up the circuit breaker panel as well.

Lastly, I've decided to fit the inner wing sections before closing up the fuselage as it'll be easier to clamp them together to get a good fit than it will if I'm clamping a completed fuselage.....CRACK!!!!!

Hopefully I'll get another update in before hols. Thanks for looking

Edited March 12 by CraigH
wrong date

[KiwiZac]

This is brilliant. I've come in late but luckily not too late!