Lukgraph DH 89 Rapide

[Zac_Zolar]

1 hour ago, mozart said:

Look back to p13 Zac and you’ll see my answer to the same question. 

 

 

Ta, looks like any day now.

 

My AA decals arrived today, that was uber quick.

 

Zac.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Zac_Zolar

[Kagemusha]

Regards the Dominie, some interesting info here.

[thierry laurent]

1 hour ago, Kagemusha said:

Regards the Dominie, some interesting info here.

Hi Andy. I think you must be either tired or absent-minded today as I posted the same link yesterday ... 

[Rick Griewski]

Doubles happen.  There is huge excitement around this kit. 

[Kagemusha]

1 hour ago, thierry laurent said:

Hi Andy. I think you must be either tired or absent-minded today as I posted the same link yesterday ... 

 

Further evidence, not that any is needed, that I am losing the plot! 

[mozart]

I’ve just spent an interesting couple of hours listening to personal accounts from people who trained as w/ops at Yatesbury (No. 2 Wireless and Radio School) in Dominies. Accounts varied in some respects but it’s largely due to when they trained and the radio equipment they used. The earlier gear, up to the end of 1943ish, was the 1082 and 1083 receiver transmitters. They were big, bulky, and quite difficult to use in some respects such as tuning. They needed coils changed if the frequency was altered and the students had to carry a large bag with them containing an array of coils.  Conditions in the planes were described as cramped (they were also of course in flying gear with parachutes) and numbers of pupils (when mentioned) was 3 or 4.

Then the Marconi T1154/R1155 sets were introduced, frequencies were changed by simply turning colour-coded dials, so easier to use, no need for bags of coils etc. There were 5 seats but 6 pupils were often carried, somebody sitting uncomfortably on a “shelf” at the back of the aircraft. There was only one transmit (morse) key available which was on the desk in front of the transmitter, so they took it in turns to operate it over the length of the flight. The instructor (sitting alongside) gave each student a station to call up and a message to pass on, or a signal would be sent from a ground station which the pupil had to answer.  One Australian chap said his initial w/op training at home was using WW1 equipment so the Marconi gear was a revelation. 
No real clue about layout apart from the mention of the number of seats, and what can be deduced from that.

Edited June 27, 2020 by mozart

[mozart]

21 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

Thanks Max. I will try to scan the pictures as well. Barracuda has fortunately released this late radio system. 

Cheers for the heads up Thierry, I've just ordered a couple of sets from Hannants. Those that I don't use in the Dominie I'll use in the Mosquito.

 

Extract from the de Havilland sales brochure showing its flexibility:

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by mozart

[thierry laurent]

Thanks Max!

 

More information:

 

If you look closely, you can see a a R1155 under the T1154 on the front port side.

 

Another interesting element: an enlargement of a good print of the famous picture of the 209 plane is showing through the front of the last window two lightly colored boxes (at the rear of the starboard side). You can distinguish them sufficiently to deduce there were not only seats there. So, it looks at least some planes had a minimum of two sets of systems on the port side. The picture of 219 from the starboard side does not show that on the other side. So, this confirms that, except for the ones on the bulkhead, the radios and/or tables were very probably only on the port side as all the accounts specified it. What puzzled me is the color and shape of such visible boxes. All pictures I have seen of both radio systems show black boxes, not light grey ones! Moreover, there are two oblong shapes and the upper one has clearly a narrower width. This difference does not correspond either to the width of the boxes of any of the two radio configurations! Weird! I'm wondering if some planes had not a combination of radio AND navigation/direction finding system because such Marconi boxes were light grey!

 

Last for that picture, the location of the front radio is different from what I initially thought: you can see the radio rack was at the level of the second window. So, there was definitely the possibility to have an instructor seat in front of it. However, one has to check if the cockpit door opening allowed it as the picture clearly showed that such a door (alas not included in the kit) was present.

 

As you wrote, I do not see how they could have operated with multiple transmitters. Otherwise, a type of general switch managed by the instructor would have been required but I simply think they probably had one transmitter and some receivers.

 

Accordingly, I'm now considering that configuration:

 

Port side: R1155 & T1154 on the cockpit bulkead with three students seats in line.

Left side: instructor seat (I've yet to assess if it was probably foldable or standard), R1155 receiver with one seat, another seat, then another R1155 or the grey navigation boxes with a last seat.

I still have to assess if I have to move other seats than the rear ones but very probably they were not anymore fixed as they were in the transport version.

 

At last, this looks to be in line with what I see in the pictures and the number of staff on board. Too bad we do not have any picture taken from the front...!

 

With regard to the pictures in the Aeroplane magazine, you published the only one of of the communication configuration that was included! So nothing new there. The two other pictures are nonetheless interesting as they show the navigation training configuration with the abovementioned light grey boxes:

 

 

 

Hope this helps somewhat!

 

BR

 

Thierry

 

 

[mozart]

No I don't think it helps Thierry!! 

 

Firstly I'm not sure what the "Marconi DF equipment" picture is in the magazine (I suspect looking at it's pristine condition that it was a navigational aid in one of the civilian guises), but it's nothing like the stuff wartime pupils were using; this is the 1082/1083 RX/TX equipment:

 

(Note the interchangeable coils above)  These are not my notes below, I disagree with the "beginning of the 1940s" statement, it was mid-1940s.  One recount I listened to yesterday was from a chap who had just passed his course using the R1082/T1083 gear who was taken to a guarded hut in the centre of Yatesbury airfield by his sergeant instructor.  They could only look through the window at this Top Secret equipment but the sergeant explained this was the new stuff (T1154/R1155) being fitted into bombers so he said they'd never use the stuff they'd just trained on!!

 

 

The second picture of a student on a sortie over the channel in 1938 is, I'm 100% certain, a navigational sortie, hence the need for a chart table and drawing aids taking up space down the starboard side so can be discounted in a radio context.

 

I agree in the pic of 209 there's definitely some form of equipment showing through the last window.....I wonder what??   Definitely also more than one receiver, as you say there's one underneath the transmitter on the bulkhead, the other side mounted on the starboard side by the instructor and possibly another further back.  We know they could all receive but only one transmit, and they're all wearing headphones for this purpose.  The plot thickens but nearly two decades of research has taught me to never implicitly trust what you see in books and magazines !! 

Edited June 28, 2020 by mozart

[thierry laurent]

Hi Max,

 

I think the first picture is actually showing a RAF configuration. Look more closely under the head of the student in the second picture and you will see part of the lower right box you see in the first picture. So, this is definitely a military gear. To me, this is very probably the navigational training configuration.

 

Moreover, another thing is interesting. The 209 picture is showing through the rear window two staggered grey boxes (one over the other) and look at the navigational boxes: you can see a similar step on the rigth side between the two boxes! This does not demonstrate anything but the similarity is there.

 

I found as well some pictures of the R1082/T1083 including the coils storage box but alas I've never any picture of such of early components in a Dragon Rapide.

 

BR

 

Thierry

[Kagemusha]

There's a selection of interior photos here, I'm not even going to speculate if they're going to be useful!

 

Another selection, this time exterior, from the same site.

[mozart]

VERY useful Andy thanks, in a kind of negative way because it proves to me that some of the captions used in the April 2004 Aeroplane datafile are just plain wrong!  Somebody has found a picture, saw radio gear and thought "Ah, must No. 2 EWS gear."  Most of the exterior pictures pre-date WW2, I suspect the interior ones do too.

[thierry laurent]

Thanks very much Andy.

 

The 209 picture is even better than the printed one I have! This also confirms the three students row on the starboard side. The Flight magazine picture was published in 1938. So, indeed such pictures show a pre-war configuration. This only leaves us with the R1155/T1154 configuration interior pictures that can only be wartime ones. Too bad even exterior pictures are so rare!

[mozart]

1 hour ago, thierry laurent said:

This only leaves us with the R1155/T1154 configuration interior pictures that can only be a wartime ones. Too bad even exterior pictures are so rare!

On the balance of firm evidence Thierry my layout will be all the radio equipment at the front of the plane as discussed and seats only aft of that.  Six seats including the instructor's.  Sorted!! 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by mozart

[thierry laurent]

I do not believe anyone will ever challenge you regarding that configuration!