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Bill Cross

YKW Israeli F-4E Phantom Load Out Question

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I'm halfway through the Double Ugly book on the Israeli F-4E Phantom Kurnass, and I'm finding that the typical bomb was either the M117 or a CBU variant. Typical outside pylon loads were the 375gal fuel tank. The inner pylon would then hold either more bombs or Sidewinders. That leaves the center load-bearing pylon (where the massive center tank goes on other aircraft). The tank apparently wasn't used often because it would have to be dropped before using the forward AIM-7 Sparrow missiles.

 

So my question is: would a Yom Kippur War (YKW) load-out be as follows?

 

Outer pylons: fuel tanks

Inner pylons: 3 M117 bombs each

Center pylon a double array of 6 M117s

 

Opinions?

Edited by Bill Cross

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That sounds good Bill. They did start using Mavericks and Shrikes during the YKW but those were more likely on the newer aircraft and attrition replacements. Not sure when the right fwd Sparrow well Sidewinder adaptor came about. But the M117 bombs on c/l and inner wing pylons seems right - although, to make things more complicated, the Israelis may have used a straked version. Maybe don't worry about that.

 

Tony

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That sounds good Bill. They did start using Mavericks and Shrikes during the YKW but those were more likely on the newer aircraft and attrition replacements. Not sure when the right fwd Sparrow well Sidewinder adaptor came about. But the M117 bombs on c/l and inner wing pylons seems right - although, to make things more complicated, the Israelis may have used a straked version. Maybe don't worry about that.

 

Tony

"Straked"? Oy, don't know that word. I think I'll use the kit MERs if no one objects too much, haha!

Edited by Bill Cross

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UPDATE:

 

Looked at the kit MERs and I can load up as follows:

 

c/l MER: 6 M117s

forward Sparrow AIM-7 slots: one AIM-7 and one ECM pod

inner MERs: 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders each, plus MER attached with 2 M117 and one CBU from Thierry's team each (just need Sprue Bros. to get them in-stock again)

outer pylons: wing tanks in USAF colors

 

Total load: 10 M117s; 2 CBUs; 4 AIM-9 Sidewinders; 3 AIM-7 Sparrows; 1 ECM pod

 

Seems like a pretty bad-ass load to me. Any objections or corrections?

Edited by Bill Cross

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These were what I meant (shamelessly poached from the web for educational purposes only). Think this is a B-52 example...

 

imagejpg1-51.jpg

 

The load-out does sound bad-a** !

 

Tony

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Hi, Tony, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

 

The photos I've seen of the Kurnass M117s so far have all been straight vanilla: conventional fins (unlike the one you posted). That means nothing, of course, except that the CAM resin ones are the older, USAF style, and therefore I don't have to come up with those bigger fins (whew :clap2:).

 

That's sensible to have only 5 M117s on the c/l MER. I can handle that.

 

Jim's outboard tanks are painted in IDF/AF colors from the looks of it, whereas the DUB show them as in USAF colors (Forest Green above, light gray below).

 

Decisions, decisions.

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UPDATE:

 

Looked at the kit MERs and I can load up as follows:

 

c/l MER: 6 M117s

forward Sparrow AIM-7 slots: one AIM-7 and one ECM pod

inner MERs: 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders each, plus MER attached with 2 M117 and one CBU from Thierry's team each (just need Sprue Bros. to get them in-stock again)

outer pylons: wing tanks in USAF colors

 

Total load: 10 M117s; 2 CBUs; 4 AIM-9 Sidewinders; 3 AIM-7 Sparrows; 1 ECM pod

 

Seems like a pretty bad-ass load to me. Any objections or corrections?

 

Doesn't sound like a feasible load.  I'm no expert but just about every picture of YKW  Phantoms show them to be toting only a single type of munition, either M117's OR CBU's.  You can't drop two types of weapons in a single pass, the ballistics are different and during the war, the SAM threat was so high that the F-4's typically got in and got out. No loitering around or coming back for another pass.  Plus I've never seen different types of stores on the same TER.

 

That's also an extremely heavy load.  Not sure the F-4 would have had much range.

 

From the pics I've seen, they often flew with a pretty unusual asymeterical layout consisting of three M117's on the right wing TER, 5 on the centerline MER (the front center weapon was not fitted) two wing tanks and a single AIM9 for self defense.   Often a single ECM pod was fitted in the forward Sparrow missile well and most of the time, the AIM-7's were not fitted.

 

A less common configuration would be the same as above but with a TER on the lift wing as well.  Also in this case, the front center M117 was not fitted.  Not sure why this was the case, I'm guess it was due to weight issues.

 

 

 

Edited by John Irwin

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Hi, Tony, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it.

 

The photos I've seen of the Kurnass M117s so far have all been straight vanilla: conventional fins (unlike the one you posted). That means nothing, of course, except that the CAM resin ones are the older, USAF style, and therefore I don't have to come up with those bigger fins (whew :clap2:).

 

That's sensible to have only 5 M117s on the c/l MER. I can handle that.

 

Jim's outboard tanks are painted in IDF/AF colors from the looks of it, whereas the DUB show them as in USAF colors (Forest Green above, light gray below).

 

Decisions, decisions.

 

FWIW, Just about all the pics of seen of YKW Phantoms toting M117's show the bombs to be the later version with the strakes.   Not to say that they didn't use both, I just haven't seen any pictures of the earlier versions.

 

John

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Bill, it may be a trick of the light / exposure, but it looks like Jim's right outboard is 36622/34079 (as is the flap ?) but Israeli light blue left wing. They may have got through their initial Israeli-coloured drop tanks fairly quickly. My conjecture.

 

 

Tony

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Hmm, Tony, your sage advice is complicating things, LOL. :unsure:

 

I'm just at the start of the YKW section, so I haven't absorbed all the photos yet. But getting a straked version of the M117 is also going to be a royal PITA (the CAM ones are the only M117s I've found so far). Any suggestions? I've never modified a resin item before; I'm sure it's possible to scratch-build the fins.

 

Interesting only one Sidewinder.... Some of the accounts in the book during the WoA speak of a second launch, and there were multiple kills on the same CAP, too, at least from time to time, though not on SEAD missions IIRC. The pilots certainly seemed to prefer the 9s to the 7s, that's for sure.

 

Agreed that's a heavy load. In comparing Jim's photo, you would drop the additional MER on the inboard pylon? With five M117s on the c/l MER and five more on the two inboard pylons, that would be 10 total?

 

How would one NOT use the 7's bays? Straight fill-in?

 

And is there a DEFINTIVE ECM pod I should use?

 

Lots of material here if someone else is going to build a Kurnass.

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Bill, I don't know of any 1/32 straked fin M117s and making forty fins and fairing them into ten bombs would be a PITA. Maybe leave the racks empty and add them if Harold or Gary make some ?

 

Jim's model has two Sidewinders - one on an inner wing pylon, and another on the Sparrow well adaptor. I'll rummage and see if I can find a pic of the real thing - though there surely is one in the DU volume. The adaptor was included in the Isracast F-4E set, but everything else in that set is post-YKW - maybe you can scratchbuild it, using the Tamiya ECM adaptor with the extension added, and Winder rail attached ? IIRC from pics I've seen the extension for the rail was not complicated.

 

Can't tell if Jim installed a late ALQ-101 with the gondola or early model ALQ-119. Gary of GT Resins is working on ECM pods from that era, and may have an appropriate one coming along. The back of the DU book has loads of photos of YKW era pods.

 

Will rummage through my DU books. I have the second volume too, but can't scan and post without fear of infringing copyright.

 

HTH

 

Tony

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All the imagery I've seen in the 2 Kurnass books I have show no Sparrows/Sidewinders with pod under the fuselage and no bombs with Sidewinders on wing station, I guess that would be station 2. So, I suppose, the loadout would depend on the aircraft number.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

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