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Looking for reference material for F-4 phantom, F-5E, AV-8B rivet deta


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#1 Adrian Koh

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:06 AM

Hello all. Am new to this forum but have followed for years. I am currently on a few projects (being semi-retired but ADHD) and would like to fully represent the rivet detail. Could you please point me to any reference material (books / plans) which feature surface rivet detail for modern jet aircraft. 

 

Thanks.  Adrian

Tokyo Japan. 


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#2 LSP_Kevin

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:17 AM

Welcome aboard, Adrian!

 

:post1:

 

Kev



#3 MARU5137

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:08 PM

Hello Adrian.

:post1:
WELCOME to the super LSP.

Have a great day and look forward to your future builds .

:yahoo:
F-4 Phantom II Website
http://www.f-4.nl/


USAF and Navy McDonnell F-4 Phantom aircraft general information and Topping Inc. and Precise Models Inc. contractor scale models
http://aviation.wate...f4-phantom.html



F-4 Phantoms Phorever
https://m.facebook.com/F4Phorever/

Watch "F-4 PHANTOM FIGHTER COCKPIT" on YouTube



Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II Modeler's Online Reference
https://www.cybermod.../f-5e_all.shtml


AV-8B Harrier - Military Aircraft
https://fas.org/man/...sys/ac/av-8.htm


Best I could find on internet thingy.

MARU 5137
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Res Non Verba .

La calma è la virtù dei forti !

Potius Mori quam foedari.


#4 Jennings Heilig

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:40 PM

Please bear in mind, any rivet pattern you find on a drawing is just the opinion of the person who drew it, not a rivet by rivet representation of where they actually fall on the real aircraft.  The only place you can find the actual locations of rivets on real aircraft is on the engineering drawings of each individual part.  Put another way, you can put rivets on your model however you want to and be just as "accurate" as any drawing of rivet patterns you're going to find online.  Or put another way, such drawings are pretty much fiction.  


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"It's all part of the show..."


#5 Tony T

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:52 PM


You need to distinguish between rivets and access panel fasteners. On an F-4, for example, there are access panels on the fuselage and wings held in place with flush fasteners, and a lot of riveted fasteners which I would completely ignore as they are barely discernible even in 1/32 (unless recently replaced).

The best source, as always, is to study quality photos.

And welcome!

Tony
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Finally spraying again

#6 Chek

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:47 PM

What Tony said.

 

Gather your collection of photos, then examine your drawings, critically. Really critically.

 

Is that panel in the drawing too square compared to photos (being sure to compare like with like, i.e. they're both F-5E and the one's not an F-5A)?

 

What fasteners stand out? And how visible are the rivets anyway?

 

Some modelers do tend to go for the fully riveted look, which is more a matter of taste IMHO, and only a good option on natural metal schemes.

But if that's what you want, search for a cutaway drawing, such as Flight magazine or Aviagraphica in Aeroplane magazine used to provide, so that

you gain some understanding of the underlying structure before you have to resort to inevitable guesswork in some areas.

 

And welcome to the forums.


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#7 tchwrma

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 12:11 AM

Hello all. Am new to this forum but have followed for years. I am currently on a few projects (being semi-retired but ADHD) and would like to fully represent the rivet detail. Could you please point me to any reference material (books / plans) which feature surface rivet detail for modern jet aircraft. 

 

Thanks.  Adrian

Tokyo Japan. 

Adrian, talking about F-5E, there are a little rivets in the entire aircraft. There are lots of Screws. The modelers use to represent them as rivets, but they are really Screws,

Here some phoitos made by me in Brazilian planes:

 

https://www.dropbox....kfe0z8p4pa?dl=0

 

Feel free to copy them. Any question, please contact me; I Have more pictures of  F-5E.

Cheers, Paulo.


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#8 CANicoll

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 02:39 AM

Adrian,

 

Welcome and good luck!  Which F4 specifically are you looking for information for?

 

Chris


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#9 Adrian Koh

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:50 AM

Hello Adrian.

:post1:
WELCOME to the super LSP.

Have a great day and look forward to your future builds .

:yahoo:
F-4 Phantom II Website
http://www.f-4.nl/


USAF and Navy McDonnell F-4 Phantom aircraft general information and Topping Inc. and Precise Models Inc. contractor scale models
http://aviation.wate...f4-phantom.html



F-4 Phantoms Phorever
https://m.facebook.com/F4Phorever/

Watch "F-4 PHANTOM FIGHTER COCKPIT" on YouTube



Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II Modeler's Online Reference
https://www.cybermod.../f-5e_all.shtml


AV-8B Harrier - Military Aircraft
https://fas.org/man/...sys/ac/av-8.htm


Best I could find on internet thingy.

MARU 5137

 

Thank you Maru-san. Much appreciated.



#10 Adrian Koh

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:52 AM

Adrian,

 

Welcome and good luck!  Which F4 specifically are you looking for information for?

 

Chris

Hello Chris,

Thanks for responding. I am working on a 1/32 F-4B but will also do the 4E later on and the rivet detail should bee quite similar. I build 3 feet models (looks OK from 3 feet away) so exact and precise is not absolute but preferred. 

 

Again thanks. 



#11 Adrian Koh

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:56 AM

Please bear in mind, any rivet pattern you find on a drawing is just the opinion of the person who drew it, not a rivet by rivet representation of where they actually fall on the real aircraft.  The only place you can find the actual locations of rivets on real aircraft is on the engineering drawings of each individual part.  Put another way, you can put rivets on your model however you want to and be just as "accurate" as any drawing of rivet patterns you're going to find online.  Or put another way, such drawings are pretty much fiction.  

Oooo. Jennings,

so you are saying that the drawings of say, Minoru Matsubara are probably off? So when HGW does their easy rivet decal series it is likewise some truth, but quite a it of artistic license (or in another way, the blind leading the blind as they probably used some book reference?) Hmmmm how about their representation of the panel lines? Just curious as this could possibly change my mindset. 



#12 Adrian Koh

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:00 AM

You need to distinguish between rivets and access panel fasteners. On an F-4, for example, there are access panels on the fuselage and wings held in place with flush fasteners, and a lot of riveted fasteners which I would completely ignore as they are barely discernible even in 1/32 (unless recently replaced).

The best source, as always, is to study quality photos.

And welcome!

Tony

Hi Tony,

Thanks.  I do have some walk round photos of an f-5E which do show up as heaps of screws as Paulo mentioned. was wondering about them on other planes. I would like to do one really good plane as my bucket list.



#13 CANicoll

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 03:07 PM

Hello Chris,

Thanks for responding. I am working on a 1/32 F-4B but will also do the 4E later on and the rivet detail should bee quite similar. I build 3 feet models (looks OK from 3 feet away) so exact and precise is not absolute but preferred. 

 

Again thanks. 

 

Ahh ok.  There is an F4S at Udvar Hazy which is not very far away from where I live and I could take photos for you if that was a plane you were modeling.

 

Good luck, there are LOTS of references available for you, and a lot of knowledgeable people here too.

 

Best regards,

Chris



#14 Adrian Koh

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:58 AM

Adrian,

 

Welcome and good luck!  Which F4 specifically are you looking for information for?

 

Chris

 

HI Chris, I am building a 1/32 F-4B



#15 Ben Brown

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 02:47 PM

Welcome fellow Phantom fan! Here is a fantastic site that has photos, manuals, and drawings for F-4s and many other types: http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/  Be prepared to spend a few hours poking around there. Also, some of the web sites he uses for hosting has some ads that might push  the limits of safe for work (Russian dating sites, etc). Some of them also limit the amount of data you can download in an hour.

 

Back in early 2017 or late 2016, he posted an F-4A/B/J/S structural repair manual that might help you find where to put the fasteners on your model, panel by panel. The search function for the blog is okay, but not great, so you might be better off just clicking on each link in the Blog Archive on the right side of the page and seeing what's in each month. There is a ton of great material there.

 

Like the others have said, I wouldn't bother with most of the rivets, since you can't really see them on the real airplane unless you're standing pretty close to it. 

 

Cheers!

 

Ben






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