HK B-17...C 5/4 sweating the metal

[brahman104]

Craig,

 

"Air force" ---- as inaccurate as it is, one of my favorites. Great flightline and takeoff shots.

Careful though, those interior scenes were shot in a Hollywood mock-up of a Y1B-17 for the movie "I Wanted Wings" and recycled for "Air Force" (I believe "Wake Island" also, as a PBY waist section).

Convincing, but not totally accurate.

EX: In the case of the radioroom gun; it's being fired through a early "blister type" roof opening.

EX: Some early Forts were modified to carry a fixed tail gun, but never anyone back there manning it.

EX: Nose compartment was a bit roomy; note the scene when the bombadier appears to climb a ladder into the cockpit!

 

BOMB BAY

A bomb bay tank would be a change of pace and interesting, but obscuring all that detail work you've put into it would be a shame.

How about if you went with a permanent bombload on one side and a removeable fuel tank on the other.

A couple of pins on the top of the tank and a couple of desceet nylon sockets on the roof might work, or maybe maganets.

It would give you the option of a "not what you see everyday" bomb bay load, yet all your detail work could be made available to view.

 

RADIOROOM

Guess the radioroom plexiglas hatch isn't an issue; either set in place or remove and place in the radioroom --- somewhere.

From what I understand it was oddly a "just put that anywhere" item.

Would think it would have a rack or clips to hold it securely during combat.

If the gun(s)s were in the firing location, I'd think the gun wieght would pull the receivers downward, so not that much of your detail work would be obscured (mostly the door to the waist section).

Even in the stowed position it would look better then just missing completly.

Would it take that much work to make the radioroom gun mount actually slide along the track slot?

Listen to me ---- nothing is that hard to do, when someone else iks doing the work!

 

Just curious, what are youur plans for display when done, or is this a "I'll worry about that when I have to" question?

 

I know you welcome comments, but I always feel like I'm highjacking your thread!

 

 

Terry

 

Hi Terry!

 

Please don't ever feel like you're hijacking the thread, this information is always excellent for discussion and a very useful check when weighing up how relevant some reference material can be!

 

Yes, I think I'm probably going to go with a removable single extra bomb bay tank. I have some spare magnets left around from my Tamiya Spit build so I think they'll come in very handy. I've actually been experimenting with them for another project today and they should work out quite well.

 

I hadn't considered the possibility of making the gun mounts moveable in the tracks, but that's not a bad option. Maybe I'll have to invest in some more magnets for the ammo cans so I can remove them when I stow the guns. Good engineering challenge... I believe I'll have to use some more brass!

 

Good point about the plexiglass hatch too, I'll have to find somewhere creative to stash it!

 

Keep the awesome ideas coming mate!

 

Craig

[richdlc]

excellent work as usual! Regarding that final image...I seem to recall in the dim depths of my mind something about that access door / entrance being offset slightly (can't remember to which side) and not dead centre...

[ClumsyDude]

Super work Craig. I have no idea how you're going to get that cockpit looking good, but I have every confidence you will, and I'm going to enjoy watching you do it.

 

Cheers

Jim

[TKB]

Craig,

 

richdic is correct, the entrance opening should be a bit wider and offset to the co-pilot side.

Being the cockpit side is finished, rather then try and fix it,  just hang the fabric cutain to conceal the co-pilot side edge, as the pilot side edge is where it should be. Looking through the entrance hatch under the flightdeck, I doubt the non offset opening would be noticable (no with all the eye candy you have in there).

 

I'm with Jim on how you are going to pull that cockpit structure off, but you will one way or another.

If it were a case of just flattening out the nose would be one thing, but as you pointed out the whole area is out of whack. I would have thrown in the towel and cursed HK for not getting it right in the first place! You ---- guess you're the "Rockie" of modeling, taking body and head blows ---- and just keep coming back for more! In the end you'll come out on top.

 

As far as gaps go, being we're talking 100% scratch built ---- no bad --- not bad at all!

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Thanks guys for all your encouragement and faith that I will see this through! I guess what I really need is some good reliable dimensions for the windscreen - you know, length, width, height. I can do it by eye but it'd be nice to have something solid to go on

 

On the subject of the nose access door, nice pick up all round! Yes, it's clearly way too late to change it but I do like Terry's suggestion with the strategically placed curtain  

 

I guess having originally taken a pretty massive stab in the dark as far as how the new fuselage sections would mate with the existing kit parts these things must be expected, like I said at the start if someone can vaguely identify this as a B-17 at the end I'll be more than happy! I've certainly learned a lot about the process through this build I can assure you and each time a problem comes up it's a new learning experience of how to deal with it.

 

I think things are going to get messy soon, but that's the fun of it all!

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[dodgem37]

Superb detailing, Craig.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

[TKB]

Craig,

 

I don't think there will be a problem of her being recognized as a B-17!

Probably the initial reaction is going to be "When did Tamiya released a 1/32 shark fin B-17!"

 

Good idea about cutting the lower nose and upper cabin parts; most likely less work in the long run.

 

Looking for anything on the windshield measuements, I went over my reference material on the Fort and googled it ever way I could think of. Unfortuantely found nothing. Maybe someone willl come through with something.

 

But that got me thinking ---- you may be better off eye-balling it.

The modifications youve done to correct the "flatttened" area of the nose area and the cabin area are certainly capturing the "B-17 look", that the original kit lacked. You used you calibrated eye with good results and now adding the windshield to true measurements ---- well it might well throw everything out of whack again.

On this one I would go with "looks right" rather then exact accuracy.

 

Terry

[Thud_Ally]

Wow. Just wow. A truly incredible endeavour here. Must of re-read the topic several times now. 

[brahman104]

Thanks for the suggestions and comments guys! Always appreciated

 

Well I've been away for a week or so with work playing with the Navy which has been amusing. As I'm sure I've said before sometimes enforced time away from the bench can actually be a good thing as it gives you a chance clear the mind and see things in a new light. Still got a few other pressing matters to attend to but hopefully I can make some more progress soon. 

 

A kind gentleman over at hyper scale emailed me some pdfs of the the original microfiche drawings of the windscreen dimensions so I made a template in plastic and had a look to see how it all lined up. As expected, there was a bit of difference in the size of mine, but I think Terry's suggestion of eyeballing it may be the best option here for the overall look. 

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig,

 

Been thinking about the radioroom gun track. How about if you:

• use a length of tube channel with a horizontal slot cut along the center of one side. This would form a track. 
• yoke/ring mount would have round plugs on the ends to hold them in the channels
• slot would be wide enough for the gun mout structure pass through, but still leave a lip to hold the plugs in place.
• a inconspicuous vertical notch cut down to the slot on the bomb bay end would allow the mount end plugs to drop into the channel and then be moved to the desired position
• to play it safe, plug/channel clearance probably should be on the sloppy side to ease movement.

 

Make any sense how I explained it?

You probably have figured out what your going to do --- just threw my two cents in.

 

Another item to think about; the wheel hubs --- covered or exposed? Hub caps would be OK, but being the early type wheel hubs were distinctly different from what is seen on most Fs and all Gs, it would be another unique aspect to incorporate.

I believe the early hubs had a 8 spoke inner hub with the outer rim having 25 holes around the circumference.

Maybe modify an 8 spoke hub from another kit or resin, 1/48 or 1/32 depending on what's suitable and add the outer holed rim? A lot of work, but they would be another point of interest on your C/D.

 

I'm a real idea man ain't I ---- "Well, all you have to do is -----"

I could be one of those multi- million dollar salary CEOs!

 

"Air Force" is on as I write this ---- a bomb bay fuel tank is definitely the way to go!

 

Terry.

[TKB]

Craig,

 

Oops, found a better picture of the early wheel hub ---- that should be 24 holes on the outer rim circumference.

 

Did some quick browsing. Looks like a 1/32 Hasegawa P-40N, Trumpeter 1/32 P-47N or TBF/TBM spoked wheel hubs are very close and would be adaptable with some work.

 

If you choose to go this route, I'm sure someone has some hubs kicking around and would surely contribute them.

 

Getting ahead of things again, but keep in mind for the future.

 

Terry

[brahman104]

Thanks Maru and Terry!

 

Hahaha, it looks like you have been spending more time on my build than I have lately! I think I see what you are trying to suggest here and that is very similar to what I had in mind. Time will of course tell when I put it into practice, but I think this is definitely a part that needs to be made in brass for it to work properly. I am of course dying to do some more work on it, but there's been quite a few other things requiring my attention of late, much to my dismay! 

 

As always I really appreciate your input on this one mate, any suggestion or idea is worth mentioning and considering. While I'm on it, any ideas for the cockpit rework??? hahaha!

 

I've only had a fleeting look at the wheel hubs at the moment, having seen a few with caps. However, I do think the bare hub is a much better look and I had no idea there were so many differences in the hubs and after the B model, I thought they were all pretty much straight forward. Do you have a picture of what they looked like. Please feel free to post anything which could help either myself or others following along and maybe attempting this kind of silliness in secret!

 

Cheers for the heads up though! Hoping there'll be some more progress soon.

 

Craig

[TKB]

Craig,

 

I'm not very good at attachments, photobucket and such in forums ---- hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Could you E-Mail me and I could supply some photos of the early wheel hub and be able to share any other info you might want?

You could then include anything you felt should be shared in your updates.

tkbrodin@comcast.net   (not breaking any rules here, am I?)

 

As far as your cockpit cabin/windshield rework, like I said before I'd have thrown in the towel.

If this was twenty years ago and I had the tenacity you do, I might consider:

• get it all right, back far enough to include the observation blister and rear side windows
• cut it off
• rework it into a vacuform master
• make an clear aycrylic part

You mentioned that you'd probably go the vacuform route for the nosepiece anyway.

Never been a fan of vacuform parts --- too flimsy, but using thin aycrylic (Paul Budzik's B-17F) seems to be a give some "meat" to a part.

Keep in mind, the the angled sliding side windows were slightly recessed to clear the rear square window. Flush cockpit side windows aren't really noticable in 1/72 or 1/48, but it might be more obvious in 1/32.

 

Next to getting the windshield right, a misshapen nosepiece is just as offensive.

 

Regarding the nosepiece, Bulkhead #1 has an out of round look to it  due to the lower 5 and 7 o'clock jowls and straight bottom edge. It's basicly a main circle, two smaller circles forming the jowls and a straight line along the bottom of the main circle, connecting the lower intersection point of the jowl circles and the main circle. Got that!

The bottom line is, the radius of the main circle from the center to the top and from the center to the bottom is the same.

 

Another sugesstion if I may:

• rather the make the nosepiece fit the fuselage, do the opposite
• make the nosepiece master with the rear edge perfectly circular except for the slight "jowls at 5 and 7 o'clock and a flat bottom
• once the nosepiece is has been vacuformed and framed, use it to make a matching Bulkhead #1
• attach the Bulkhead #1 to the front of your fuselage and let it dictate any required shimmin/shaping to the fuselage
• once the nosepiece and fuselage match, Bulkhead #1 inner diameter can be trimmed down to scale

 

Again all easier said then done, but I'm sure you catch my drift ----- plus you obviously have the skills.

Note I said skills and not skill. Most of us are not gifted to be "multi-skilled" as you are.

 

 

Terry

[JayW]

Man Craig - this is my first time tuning in!  You are doing things here I have never seen done.  Makes me go Hmmmm.  By the time you are done with this you might wonder why you bought the HK in the first place; you will have replaced nearly all of it!!  You have a tiger by the tail; don't let go!

[brahman104]

Many thanks guys!

 

Jay, I'm glad you had a chance to drop by and have a look.... yes you could wonder why I've binned so much of the kit.... it certainly started out to be a pretty straight forward swap of some parts.... then it turned into something quite different! Mind you, once I finally get to the wings they'll be pretty straight forward so I'll get a bit of a break then. Anyway, I'm in way too deep to back out now

 

Okay, so what's been happening?

 

Not really a lot. Well physically anyway. Pretty much everyone, myself included, cringed at the sight of the non-aligning fuselage halves and the less than ideal shape up of the cockpit area. To that end I have been pondering for some time how best to attack it and once again, inspiration has found me. As Terry stated, it was probably the best idea to go by eye rather than factory measurements, but at least they gave me a start point. To that end.....

 

 

I lopped off the cockpit roof as my run in with the liquid sprue produced some rather unsightly results to the right hand side. Here's the disparity between the two....

 

 

 

Yep, that's rubbish. But I can deal with that. What I did need though was to build a solid "insert" of the cockpit area would would serve to take decent measurements off to build the replacement section.

 

This was the first attempt...

 

 

Hmmmm, yes you can see all manner of gaps and ugliness there. It stumped me for a while, until I had another look at the real thing and figured the side window section was sitting too high. If I took about 1.5mm off each side, that would drop the whole lot down and in effect get rid of a lot of the gaps. It would also go a long way to making sure the windscreen area where it blends into the nose wasn't too big.

 

 

So this is before....

 

 

And after.....

 

 

Little bit nicer eh?