Cyanoacrylate Does Attack White Metal, Copper and Cotton

[ssculptor]

"Cyanoacrylate Does Attack White Metal, Copper and Cotton" is a long discussion on the SeawaysShipmodelingList@yahoogroups.com Digest Number 5325 Some of these modelers make their models (mostly scratch built) as professional model makers for museums and private collections. This is a pretty serious group and I have yet to find much, in any, levity in the posts. I read the posts as a lurker but I never contribute as I have nothing to say. Kind of hard to figure coming from me, isn't it? But since I have not built a wood rigged sailing ship model in at least 40 years I keep my mouth shut.

 

It seems that after a period of time, somewhere from two to 10 years, the complicated rigging of the sailing ship models have, in some cases, completely disintegrated where it was held in place by use of Cyanoacrylate glues. This is quite a problem as you can imagine with sailing ship models. There is a problem with it attacking white metal castings, which has been a problem for years with lead based castings when painted. But, more important for us here is that apparently the CA adhesive attacks copper. How many of use use the cyanoacrylates for assembling the photo etched parts on our models?

 

One problem may be due to the fact that the ship models are usually kept in glass display cases but others have said that the problem may be due to the fact that the adhesive never really sets and is constantly forming acids when it combines with other elements in the air. Another element may be the room temperature and humidity where the model is stored, not to mention the amount of sale in the air if one lives near the ocean.

 

This discussion was sparked by an article in the Nautical Research Journal, Spring 2011, Vol. 56, No.1, pp. 57 - 58, "Shop Notes - Cyanoacrylate Does Attack White Metal, Copper and Cotton"

 

I do not think that the problem is solved, but rather the discussion has just begun. One person mentioned that the cyanoacrylate accelerators may be more damaging to the materials. Another said that CA does not age well when left in the bottle for a long period of time and maybe the use of older CA may be the problem. Yet another member of their group told them, essentially, that the article was full of hot air and went on and on with scientific arguments to prove his point. Fun reading material.

 

Personally, since the fumes have caused a bad reaction to my eyes when I first worked with "super glue" on balsa, I have gone back to five minute epoxy for joining dissimilar materials. One writer on the Sailing Ship model site mentioned that CA works fine with bonding plastic to wood but still, I do not like the fumes and I will continue to avoid working with it.

 

Another sailing ship modeler mentioned that for stronger structural bonds (wood and cotton) he preferred JB Weld which has to cure overnight rather than CA. For most other uses he found that Lineco pH neutral PVA glue dries harder and stronger than Elmers or Titebond. It can be diluted to a thin consistency with water and soaks into rigging knots leaving little or no residue. Of course he is referring to the cotton thread rigging, which we do not use.

 

But then again, I am an old codger and you know how we old curmudgeons dislike change, so you guys go ahead and enjoy what you are doing with the materials you like. If, in 10 years, you find that your PE parts that were glued with CA have disintegrated, well, nothing lasts forever. On the other hand, if nothing happens in ten years then you can think back and call me an old fool. Either way is OK by me.

 

Stephen - aint life interesting?

[phantomdriver]

Possibly, but most PE is BRASS, ie zinc/ copper alloy, so that may not be affected, depending on the producer

 

in any case, I prefer to use Gator's, slower, I grant you, but effective.

 

However, this little editorial of yours is food for thought nonetheless...

[LSP_Ray]

I knew CA did weird things to cotton when I accidentally spilled some drops on my jeans. Hardened immediately but over time kind of ate it.

As phantomdriver said, pe is brass or nickel-coated brass and I have never seen any problems there. I have models well over 10 years old with no ill effects from ca use.

[JamesHatch]

The wooden model ship fraternity, of which I am a fully paid up member, always look at CA with much suspicion. This topic crops up with regularity on many model ship sites, mine included. Stories about how the CA bond will break down in 10 to 20 years, is another such story. Museums won't take 'museum quality' ships unless the old standards of glue have been used only.....not including CA. Horror stories about how our creations will start to ping planks in the near future are regaled to us frequently.

 

I don't know why these frequent topics flare up, but I think a little of it is the old 'elitism' of wooden ship modellers, who shun many new techniques and suchlike. While all this hot air is blown, we are still waiting to see that elusive model where CA has affected it. We won't hold our breaths though.....far too dangerous!

 

I used to use CA making wooden models almost 30 years ago, and I still know of some modellers who fly those models. Still holding together despite using CA, and copious drenchings in glow-fuel...

Edited March 5, 2011 by James H

[ssculptor]

Well, I still try to avoid CA simply because I do not like the effect it has on my eyes.

I also think that the fact that the ship modelers keep their models sealed in glass cases may have an effect on things. It is a complex subject and I do not think that it will be resolved any time soon.

I forgot about the PE being brass, not straight copper.

However, being a crusty old timer I'll probably stick with wood glues for gluing wood. As I recall when I was flying U-Control I never had to worry about the model staying together for long periods of time as they usually crashed long before any glue would have a chance to deteriorate, especially when flying combat. As a matter of fact, I enjoyed rebuilding the models for the next weekend more than I liked flying. Each time I rebuilt it the model airplane came out looking different. That way I could invent my own airplanes.

As the lady used to say on the Saturday Night Live TV show, "Never mind."

Stephen

[JamesHatch]

You flew 'U-Control'? That's what I used to fly, but we call it Control-Line over here. Never flew combat though....always looks like the lines would get twisted

 

....whoops....back to topic!

[ssculptor]

You flew 'U-Control'? That's what I used to fly, but we call it Control-Line over here. Never flew combat though....always looks like the lines would get twisted

 

....whoops....back to topic!

James,

Yes they did get twisted at times and it was such fun seeing the guys trying to get untwisted while the two airplanes are flying all over the place. But a good time was had by all. So we crashed a lot. The propellers cost only 25 cents back then and we had the fun of repairing the planes each week. We would bring two or three planes to the field for flying combat.

We also used to soak rags in "tillie" - titanium tetrachloride - and tie them around the fuselage. Tillie emits large volumes of white smoke when exposed to air and we had fun making figure eights in the air. That was back around the Korean War era and one could buy, without restriction, enough chemicals to blow up anything you could see. But we were all very patriotic back then and there were no rebellious kids burning flags in those days. It was a different time, a different ethos. A few years ago I happened across a HAZMAT guide book for firemen and first responders and I looked up tillie. Apparently is is so dangerous that firemen are advised to stay the hell away from it and call in Hazmat to deal with the problem. And around 1950 we were washing our hands in it.

Ah nostalgia.

Stephen

[LSP_Kevin]

You flew 'U-Control'? That's what I used to fly, but we call it Control-Line over here.

 

Yeah, control-line here too James. Had one as a kid, but never did master it. Ended up removing the engine and bolting it to the clothesline...

 

Kev

[JamesHatch]

As an aside, the CA I used all those years ago was Zap CA

 

The longevity in the bottle is as good as on the model. Don't forget, store your CA in the fridge when not being used.

[thierry laurent]

Funny...

 

CA has an effect on lead.

 

Never glue lead pellets with CA inside a kit to avoid the tail sitter syndrom! Lead will react and progressively produce a large quantity of lead oxyd. This generally results in cracks where you glued the fuselage or nose halves...

[robtmelvin]

From my ship modelling days (plastic, not wood) I generally used a product called "Gator Glue" to attach my PE and I've carried that over to airplanes. The main reason for this was the low shear strength of CA, which could result in delicate PE railings going "ping" with temperature changes. Gator Glue is a white glue type of product that has a decent amount of work time before it sets and has good shear strength. It also dries clear, just like any other white glue, though Gator Glue is a bit thicker than standard white glue. My primary use for CA these days is just gap filling. I try not to use the stuff any more than I have to.

 

Bob