F-4 Phantom SEA factory camouflage pattern info?

[Ben Brown]

Hi All,

 

I'm doing some research on 4th TFW F-4Ds and Vietnam-era F-4Es and I didn't want to hijack Jennings' Operation Bolo thread with a somewhat tangential question. I've really been enjoying (and saving!) the information @cmayer and others have been posting. 

 

When McDonnell started painting the F-4s in the SEA camouflage scheme at the factory, they used their own camouflage pattern that was different from the one in T.O. 1-1-4. Anyone have anything that shows the factory pattern? I think the Tamiya F-4E instructions (which I have) shows it on the option for 67-0308, but I'd like to confirm it. The giveaways are the borderless national insignia and the tan on the left side of the aft fuselage that goes up to the national insignia. 

 

Thanks!

 

Ben

[Finn]

Ben there are a few pics here that may be of help:

 

https://366th-tfw.net/bruce-hill_photos2.htm

 

Jari

[cmayer]

Hi Ben -

First, I gotta say: I am a total sucker for those late-60s McDonnell factory camouflage jets...the Ds, the Es, and the RFs all weathered quickly to make those airplanes look so tough and so cool. Combine that faded tan and ultra-flat surface texture with early tail codes and shark mouths (on the Es) while flying combat in SEA, and I think they're the coolest jets in history.

 

I don't have an actual "diagram" for the McDonnell pattern; although I would also say that I'm not really convinced it was altogether different than the AF T.O. 1-1-4. More like, it had a couple small variations. I've also read that the tan "spike" that stuck up on the aft end of the left fuselage was unique to McDonnell; but I've also seen that on plenty of early, mid, and late-era USAF painted jets, as well. in fact just paging through all the Frank MacSorely photos of those early 8 TFW jets at Ubon and Cam Ranh Bay...many of them had that spike by/under the left national insignia, and they were painted by the Air Force, before McDonnell started delivering factory camouflage jets. But then I just looked at a bunch of USAFE Ds and Es from the 70s, and they were about 50-50 with that spike.

 

The other giveaway I look for is the light green pattern on the right side of the fuselage: the McDonnell "pattern" brought that light green well forward, somewhat mirroring the dark green flow over the right intake. USAF-painted jets (almost 100%) have a straight/gentle curve of the light green that ends at about the halfway mark on the right intake tunnel.

 

Oh, one last thing I've noticed before, and noticed again while posting these photos: The McDonnell factory scheme wraps the green pattern over the air conditioning inlets on the nose, all the way down to the light gray 36622 demarcation line, whereas most of the USAF re-paints taper that green pattern into the radome above the air conditioner inlets, and the 30219 tan covers the inlets down to the 36622 gray.

 

This shot (above) of a 4 TFW F-4D shows that spear of light green shooting forward on the right intake, almost up to the wing root. Otherwise, I think the pattern looks largely the same as the AF T.O. pattern.

 

This shot, below, shows a similar elongation of the light green along the right intake trunk, again almost as far forward as the wing root.

 

Whereas, this color shot of a Mountain Home F-4D after USAF re-paint, shows the very typical slight curve of green paint that goes no further forward than halfway up the right intake (but note that the factory applied black lacquer protective coating is still present, on the horizontal stab honeycomb panels):

 

This 81 TFW Bentwaters F-4D (below), also after USAF re-paint, shows the light green pattern well aft of halfway on the right intake trunk.

 

This formation of factory-painted Ds (below) from USAFE show not only how the light green extends forward to almost the wing root, but also how remarkably similar the paint scheme was applied across so many varied serial numbers on the production line. (photo from Facebook F-4 Phantom group)

 

Then, there is this generic early E-model (I think in USAFE somewhere) in fairly fresh McDonnell factory camouflage with the full turbine stripe on the fuselage, the borderless national insignia, and the black lacquer coating on the upper horizontal stabs; and you can clearly see the flourishes of the light green pattern along the right upper fuselage and intake trunk.

 

I think you can add these variations to any accurate pattern diagram and go to town. I think the secret to modeling an accurate McDonnell factory scheme will be to look at a lot of references, lighten the paint colors as much as you can (I even wondered if McDonnell toned down the 30219 tan with 36622 gray?), and then finish with variations of flat coats...semi-flat for the tan, mostly flat for the dark green, and as flat of a flat coat as you can mix for the light green.

 

Good Hunting! I really can't wait to see someone specifically model the McDonnell variations to the colors as well as the scheme.

Cheers,
Chris Mayer

Edited August 24, 2020 by cmayer

[Finn]

Don;'t know if this helps or not:

 

https://www.docdroid.com/xYmojBd/f-4-phantom-ii-booklet-pdf#page=5

 

Jari

[cmayer]

Jari -That's some 70s gold, right there! Nice find!

[cmayer]

Ben -

Found this while perusing Ron Downey's fantastic Blog site, "Aviation Archives": http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/. If you haven't looked at it, it's worth your time. He has scanned and uploaded nearly every thing ever printed at McDonnell Douglas about all their various aircraft; and rescued a lot of aircraft engineering drawings and loft-lines (especially for F-4s, but also F-15s, F-101s, F-18s, and Harriers), and also uploaded those scans. Your post made me wonder if McDonnell ever published any drawings of their F-4 SEA scheme; as I know Ron has uploaded special McDonnell engineering drawings for the Thunderbird and Blue Angel F-4s, as well as Israeli and RAF Phantoms...I didn't find anything produced by actual McDonnell engineers, but this old IPMS summary of international F-4 patterns seems to really capture the aspects of the "McDonnell SEA" pattern we discussed above: the tan horn on the left side; the light green elongated spear on the right side, and the dark green wrap around the nose, all the way down to the gray demarcation line, covering the air conditioner inlet on the right side. Look here and download the PDF:

https://www.docdroid.com/IVaLLoa/f-4-phantom-ii-paint-and-color-schemes-pdf

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Ben Brown]

Thanks for the info, Chris and Jari! I visit Ron's blog almost daily, just to see what kind of interesting stuff he posts. I somehow missed that paint scheme document. I've never seen the link Jari posted. Great stuff!

 

Chris, where did you find those pics of the 4th's F-4Ds? Pics of their Ds are pretty hard to find. Yours look like they might have been taken during the 334th TFS's second deployment to Kunsan, Korea, in December 1969. Seymour Johnson's library has a few more photos from that deployment in their online collection. 

 

Also, in all of my years of looking at F-4 photos, I've never noticed the black lacquer finish on the stabs. Based on that, in the photo of 667, it looks like perhaps the aft section of the starboard stab has been replaced with a black section, since that part of the stab seemed to occasionally leave the aircraft. Between this and the details Jennings has come up with, its a great time to be a Phantom Nerd!

 

Ben

Edited August 25, 2020 by Ben Brown

[cmayer]

Hi Ben -

I wish I could find that site where I found those 4 TFW B&Ws again. I stumbled on those a few years ago, thought I had made a note of the site, but apparently didn't. But yes, my recollection is it was some type of a 4 TFW yearbook for that Kunsan deployment (couldn't remember if it was '68 or '69, but '69 definitely makes sense). I'm sure it's exactly as you describe, I would bet money that I just fell into the SJ on-line library, because I do recall a description about the deployment to Korea...and I data mined all the photos I could, so I have several more from that series, as well. (assume you do, too, so I won't post them here, unless someone wants to see them).

 

The black lacquer finish: I wish I knew which Blocks McDonnell applied that coating...it wasn't the early Blocks of Ds, but was definitely before Block 31 because there are many photos of slick-nosed radomes (no RHAW fairing) and the black lacquer...ditto RF-4Cs and the early F-4Es. Eventually, USAF depots and paint shops removed the lacquer coatings and by the mid-70s, don't see many/any photos of that.

I've seen photos of Ds and RFs when they were still fairly new, as well, that have the same black lacquer coating on the -15 engine tube, just forward of the nozzle "turkey feathers," presumably to protect that metal from soot build-up and corrosion; but as that tube-within-a-tube traveled in and out of the burner can assembly, I think it wore off quickly. You can see the tonal difference on that shot of 7642, above (in B&W), and it's still visible on that color shot of 7471 (417 TFS, with the KB tail code). The nozzle is burned metallic in color; but the jet pipe in front of the nozzle is artificially "black," except for the wear pattern where it travels into the burner can.

 

Not sure if that aft stab panel is a replacement or if the light angle just makes that titanium look very dark. When my late artist friend Tim McGovern pointed out the black coating to me in a Koku-fan magazine in the 80s, he said that people didn't believe it was really black...they thought it was just the way the light hit the anhedral angle of the stabs that made it look black. So for years, I studied that area in photos, just to prove or disprove if it was a black coating...now with all the old photos getting converted to digital formats and flooding the "Interwebs," it's pretty obvious there was indeed a period where McDonnell was deliberately coating the stabs and the engines. Of course, Tim's major point was, if it was black on the airplane, it was good news for modelers so they wouldn't have to replicate that natural titanium finish -- just paint it black and be done with it.

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Finn]

A couple of fresh painted RF-4Cs and one faded one:

 

 

and a couple of Ds:

 

 

Jari

[Ben Brown]

Thanks for the info and the photos!

 

Now, I just have to continue my years-long search to find out who was crew chief on Yeager’s jet while he was with the 4th. But that’s another thread....

 

Ben

[cmayer]

Jari - Those are great side-by-side illustrations of the differences between Air Force applied camouflage, and McDonnell factory-applied camouflage. Especially that top photo of the RF-4s, really highlights the differences in paint hue as well as the variations in the pattern itself. The two white-nosed RF-4s were delivered in the Navy scheme of light gull gray over white; so when the Air Force switched over the fleet to SEA camouflage, the Air Force paint barns and depots applied the first camouflage jobs. The black-nosed RF-4 in the middle is in text-book McDonnell applied camouflage: the 30219 tan is already faded; the dark green 34079 has a more olive drab tint; and the light green 34102 is also duller than the Air Force applied paint.

 

Additionally, you can see that the middle aircraft, with the McDonnell camouflage, has the full, red turbine stripe over the top of the fuselage; and the national insignia are borderless. Whereas, the white-nosed jets with Air Force applied paint, only have the short red turbine stripes at the wing root, and the national insignia are standard 15" with full blue border surrounds. And, as Ben pointed out in his OP, the USAF-painted jets don't have the tan "horn" sticking up aft of the national insignia on the left side of the fuselage; but the middle jet with the McDonnell scheme does in fact have that extra tan spike sticking up under the national insignia.

 

These are USAFE aircraft; and I can only assume that the USAFE units/depots had more time and resources than the Southeast Asia units...so they may have been able to do better preparation on the airframes to accept the new paint, and didn't have the prolific peeling and fading that the SEA units dealt with.

Thanks Jari, good pull (these are from the guy on i-Modeler, right? He inherited some great images from his dad!)

Chris

[Finn]

Yes they are from I- Modeler, here is how they did it in the field, a F-100D but the principles were probably the same for the F-4 early in in SEA:

 

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675025448_Airman-paints-F100D-plane_37-FMS-Paint-Crew_Fighting-Falcons_pressurized-spray-painter

 

Jari

[Ben Brown]

Is it me needing stronger reading glasses or does the foreground RF-4 in the top picture have a little spot of Light Gull Grey showing where the leading edge of the port stabilator meets the fuselage? Sometimes the stab would move to a slightly nose-down position on a parked F-4, which I would think would mask that area and cause a little grey swoosh as they painted.

 

I had seen the F-100 video a few years ago, but couldn't find it the last time I went looking for it. Thanks for the link! The F-100 is also one of my favorite jets.

 

Ben

[Finn]

Sure looks like they missed a spot, no doubt at the back end of the stab is more grey but they were busy painting rather than moving control surfaces around. Here is an early C, note it has a MER with bombs on the right o/b pylon with a tank on the left o/b pylon:

 

it's not on the a/c beside it because you can see all of main gear door of that one. Another C with all sorts of info on the nose gear door:

 

 

Jari

Edited August 26, 2020 by Finn

[Finn]

Probably not painted at a depot:

 

 

Jari