B-17F colors

[aircommando130]

Looking at the B-17F Erection and Maintenance Instruction dated 1MAR 43 has references for painting. 1. All interior parts made from steel except armor plate will be cadmium plated. 2. The interior exposed metal surfaces in the control cabin (cockpit?) shall be finished with one coat of primer and one coat of dark green lacquer after installation. 3.The top surface of wood tables in the navigator's compartment shall be finished with 2 coats of dark green lacquer. 4. Interior surfaces of engine cowlings shall not be painted. 5. Bomb rack parts shall not be painted. 

 

Exterior metal surfaces of the airplane shall be finished with one coat of camouflage paint  with color combinations in accordance with AAF Specification No. 24114. No primer coat shall be required. The interior of the inboard nacelles (gear well) and inside bomb doors shall not be camouflaged.

 

Fabric covered surfaces shall be finished with camouflage dope in accordance with AAF Specification No 24114.

 

Olive drab camouflage enamel - one coat US Army Specification No. 14109

Neutral Gray camouflage enamel - one coat US Army Specification No. 14109

 

I did find another paragraph that covered wood surfaces

1. All interior wood surfaces shall be finished to match adjacent surfaces except as follows:

   (a) All wood doors and floors, the top surface of the wood tables in the navigators compartment, and

all wood surfaces adjacent to unpainted structure shall be finished with 2 coats of clear lacquer

 

Hope this is a start to get some of the colors correct Also noted that behind the pilot there are 5 oxygen bottles

 3 then 2 more behind those and 3 on the right side. .

[Juggernut]

This is all well and good but for the floors, they omit the fact that there was a black rubber mat glued to the finished plywood flooring.  This may or may not be removed depending on the wear/use and whether it was damaged or not.  May have been replaced by anti-slip paint (which the E&R also fail to mention).  At 25,000 ft and at -40 degree F, any moisture on a finished wood floor makes said floor an ice skating rink.  Not very conducive to keeping oneself upright/vertical and in the fight.  I've been looking through the Boeing blueprints in an attempt to find any finishing information.  I have not yet been successful but there's over 25,000 drawings to look at.

[Karl H]

The nose, cockpit and radio compartment were lined with insulation which was then covered with an olive colored fabric. The bombardiers floor was unpainted plywood as was the floor around the top turret. The floor section under the pilots feet was unpainted aluminum. In the nose, oftentimes, the fabric was missing around the bombardier's station, revealing the insulating batts. In the radio compartment and the waist, the flooring was covered in rubber matting on early aircraft. This matting did not always stay in place revealing plywood in the radio compartment. Later the matting was replaced with an anti-skid paint. On early F models, the center floor section in the waist was aluminum. This changed in later aircraft to plywood in order to cut down on the use of aluminum. The instrument panel, nav floor, and tail gunners ammo boxes went through the same transition (from aluminum to plywood). The steps on either side of the waist were plywood and received the same matting/anti-skid paint treatment. All areas aft of the radio compartment were unpainted (except possibly on Douglas aircraft - another story...). Now DDG was used in the cockpit for, as Boeing puts it, exposed metal surfaces. This included, but was not limited to, The seats and their supports, the glareshield, rudder pedals, control columns, center pedestal, the switch panel and support for the aileron trim tab on the pilots left, the intercooler stand and the recess for the primer on the copilot's right, the hydraulic tank and accumulator, brackets for the oxygen bottles, and the structure around the top turret.

 

In this photo, taken inside the "Memphis Belle" prior to any restorations, you can see a bit of the fabric. Also bits of the insulation remain. This insulation did not have the covering like the batts in the nose and radio compartments:

 

 

Here is a G and you can see the fabric bunching up around the primer handle on the lower right:

 

 

Here is an F nose with some of the fabric missing showing the batts (which were glued directly to the skin - which is why it was not painted) and the fabric covering in place at the navigators station:

 

 

Here is a photo of a radio compartment showing the fabric covering the insulation. You can also see there was a leather scuff pad below the door:

 

 

In this photo, again in the Belle, you can see bits of the fabric below the relay panel and on the sides as well as the DDG oxygen bottle support:

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Karl H

[Karl H]

This drawing shows where the fabric and insulation were installed. The radio compartment and nose were no longer lined after the F-110-BO block. One would presume Douglas and Vega followed in roughly the same time period but it is hard to say for certain.

 

[Juggernut]

Bulkhead 4 is also unpainted.  Do I see remnants of sound proofing on bulkhead 4?  I was just looking at that blueprint a few minutes ago.  I find it strange that the floor under the pilots feet wouldn't have a coat of beryloid bronze green (a Boeing term I'm sure you've seen) but yet the control column and angled panel ( I have forgotten what that panel was for but there are four levers so it must be something to do with the engines)  on the copilot's floor would have that paint. 

[Karl H]

Bulkhead 4 had the soundproofing/fabric coverage. The floor under the pilot's feet was not painted. The object you refer to beside the copilot is the control stand for the intercoolers and yes, it was painted DDG. The Berry Brothers paint name is just their version of DDG. I have the Bulkhead 4 print someplace, let me see if I can find it. 

[aircommando130]

Those blueprints are cool! Lots of information to be passed along!

[Juggernut]

Yes!  Intercoolers, that's it...duh. I was thinking it was something related to carb heat but since these engines are turbocharged, they wouldn't need a carb heat control. 

 

I just found a photo of the unpainted cockpit floor in the Boeing archives.  Just for grins I thought I'd see what they were asking for a license to use the photo.  For a print production run of one year, the cost was $110 without any shipping,tax or surcharges added.  Sorry, I'm not paying them that much money for one image.

 

I also found soundproofing under the pilots seat structure up against the vertical wall that is immediately behind the flight deck flooring.  Granted this was in a B-17E but shouldn't have changed that much for the F.  I also found a pilot's type seat with the armor plating at the bombardiers station of a B-17E.  This was news to me as I haven't seen that type of installation before.  Just one more thing I learned about the old girl today.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Juggernut

[Karl H]

Here is the drawing showing the Bulkhead 4 soundproofing. It is in two parts:

 

 

 

In this photo, taken inside the "Memphis Belle" in 1979, you can see what appears to be the remains of soundproofing on the lower aft side of Bulkhead 4. Also note the Neutral Gray paint:

 

 

And here you can see the forward side of Bulkhead 4, opposite of the previous photo and there is no trace of insulation. The bulkhead closest to the viewer is Bulkhead 3 at the back of the navigators compartment. To the right you can see traces of the fabric here as well:

 

 

In this photo, showing the base of the top turret, you can see remains of the fabric around the fuel transfer valves and the wire bundles running from the fuse panel. Can't tell if there was any insulation or not.

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Karl H

[Karl H]

That was taken lying on my back on the navigators floor looking aft (you can see my right boot up on the nav table support...). That is the area under the cockpit/top turret area. You can see the base of the top turret in the center of the photo. You can also see where there were oxygen bottles. The wooden door to the left (of the photo) covers the reset mechanism for the emergency bomb release.

[brahman104]

You've got some really good pics there Karl. I've never seen an angle like that one from no.3 looking aft..... it does bring up some really good details. As far as the lower aft side of bulkhead 4 is concerned with the soundproofing, are you talking about the brownish coloured part? I didn't think there was anything on the lower side of that bulkhead. I'm not going off drawings here though, only what I'm interpreting through your pics.

 

Good stuff! Feel free to keep posting these wonderful references up

 

Cheers,

 

Craig

[Karl H]

Yes, that crumbling tan stuff was insulation. You can see it in the cockpit sidewall picture and to the right of the Bulkhead 3 opening along with the fabric. Pretty much rotted away. I printed off the drawing and have been studying it a little closer (I know it is very hard to read here) and I can see where that insulation in the bomb bay was in fact part of the original installation.

[brahman104]

Cool! Thanks for clarifying that mate

 

Craig

[aircommando130]

Great photos of the Belle...walked around her when she was still sitting under the cover at Mud Island.

[Karl H]

Here is a note about the rubber matting and its replacement. I believe flag 5 refers to the anti-skid paint even though it is not called out as such: