tomprobert Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 As Juggernut set earlier in the thread, I've never seen a wartime photo of external ammo boxes being used on the B-17. In regard to the HK kit, if you've got the original issue G the best thing is to cut them off of the radio room wall/bulkhead, fill the gaps with thin plastic card and add the missing framing from Evergreen. I can't comment on the E/F as haven't seen the breakdown of the parts, but what I can tell you is no external ammo cans would have been present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 So, we can conclude that the planes restored with such a configuration surely got a later A-2 turret (possibly from a Dominator) and that HK incorrectly copied that configuration as I have yet to see a B-17 (even a Warbird) with this ammo box set-up. Otherwise, I have yet to understand where this is coming from...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Restored aircraft appear to have had the A-13A turret installed which has the horizontal, external ammo cans on the turret hanger assembly (as shown in the B-32 Dominator photo). HK indeed got it very wrong as I've never seen any B-17, production or restoration, with ammo cans attached to frame 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 As Juggernut set earlier in the thread, I've never seen a wartime photo of external ammo boxes being used on the B-17. In regard to the HK kit, if you've got the original issue G the best thing is to cut them off of the radio room wall/bulkhead, fill the gaps with thin plastic card and add the missing framing from Evergreen. I can't comment on the E/F as haven't seen the breakdown of the parts, but what I can tell you is no external ammo cans would have been present. Tom, I have not seen the breakdown of the parts either but I can tell you that the proper ball turret for a B-17E or F would be the A-2 ball turret. This ball turret was installed in the B-17E after deletion of the remote control turret and continued into the B-17G production run when it was replaced by the A-2A. The A-2 installation is characterized by the single, vertical O2 bottle on the turret hanger. the oxygen supply for the A-2A was remotely located but exactly where the supply was is still a mystery to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 The top turret of the B-17G kit is a copy of the one set in the USAF museum Shoo shoo shoo Baby B-17G. This plane landed in Sweden, was changed into an airliner and transfered to France for scientific activities. So, all the military equipment was removed immediately after the war. This incomplete turret added during the seventies restoration project does not correspond to any A-1 type I have ever seen... I am really wondering what was the origin of such parts. By the way, this turret has no ammo box...! The one that is now included in the B-17E/F kit looks far more standard. I guess that copying or stratchbuilding the turret mechanism is the only way to get a more or less accurate wartime A-1 turret. Too bad nobody decided to release it as an aftermaket set. By the way, I just got most B-17 resin sets from resin2detail and was amazed when I saw the size difference of the parts in comparison with the kit parts! The resin oxygen tanks are larger, the seat and control yokes clearly smaller and the dimensions of the radios are also different! This makes you wonder if HK got the actual measures of the components or if they just worked from pictures... Intriguing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 I forgot adding that I checked as well Martin and Bendix turret types used in other bombers but they are different from the kit and restored plane one. Where is this one coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 Besides the top turret, another thing that looks corrected in the new kit is the fantasy step in the B-17G radio compartment. They also opened the rear access door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 An aspect that seemingly stayed the same is the kit cockpit sides. The wartime airframe used some fabric covering. Does anybody knows if it was quilted or not as I saw both types on restored planes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernut Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I'll have to see if I can find anything in the Boeing blueprints that alludes to what the material was supposed to be. This may take awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 Ok! I remembered I had the "12 o'clock high" DVD. I had a look at the rare cockpit view scenes in the movie and the insulation material under the roof is clearly not quilted. As the movie was shot in 1959 with repainted USAF planes, they were probably not heavily modified as restored airframes were later. I had also a quick look at another of my disks but unfortunately it seems the Wyler Memphis Belle movie has no useful cockpit scene regarding that question. Thierry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B. Andrus Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Thierry I believe the film was shot in 1949. Like what you're doing here. Working up a tweak list? Cheers, D.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I have some Sperry upper turret manuals and I have some good photos of each variation. How the heck do I post pictures here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Excellent news! Well, the normal way is: Upload the picture on a picture storage system account (Photobucket, Google Picasa, etc.). Copy the image link. Create your post in a LSP forum thread and paste the copied link in the post. When you will publish the post, the picture should be embedded. If you do not succeed, do not hesitate asking for help! Thierry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thierry laurent Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Thierry I believe the film was shot in 1949. Like what you're doing here. Working up a tweak list? Cheers, D.B. Hi Damian, You are obviously right (1949). I have sometimes too large fingers for this tab keyboard! With regard to the tweak list, I am thinking about it but this one would be huge because of the complexity of the kit and the huge fuselage...Not an easy job... By the way, this kit is a monster! Even if HK releases a somewhat better G later (very probable considering the current improvements in the E/F) I will not get it as I am already wondering where I will put the one I got! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl H Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) While I am trying to work out the photo posting issues, I can tell you that there were three variations of the top turret mechanism. The A-1 and A-1A were very similar with some differences in the mechanical systems and the platform (that the gunner stood on) went from round to a smaller, not quite elliptical piece. The A-1B was the type we see in "Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby". That was used in the war as I have seen a photo of one being removed as well as another photo where a pair of turrets (an A-1A and an A-1B) are being transported on base. To further confuse the issue, there were six different turret domes. Some could be used only on certain turrets, some could be used on all, and some could be use with some modifications. As to the fabric issue, yes, in the B-17F, the nose, cockpit and radio compartment were lined with fabric. As I recall it was referred to as cotton duck. This fabric covered insulation that was glued to the fuselage skin (or sidewalls in the cockpit) and bulkheads in those compartments. This insulation has the quilted pattern that can be seen in some photos. That is probably where the confusion comes about concerning quilted vs non quilted coverings in those areas. Note that the fabric/insulation was the way the airplane came from the factory. Some crews removed it either during repairs or from a fear of fire. The fabric/insulation was supposed to be fire proof but I have read that it would smolder, thus the fear of it burning. I have a piece of the fabric from the "Memphis Belle" that I removed in 1989. It is a very small piece as most of the interior of the airplane had been destroyed by vandals during its years sitting outside the National Guard Armory. When I can post photos, I have some from the Belle where you can see the insulation and fabric. This is all covered in the Boeing engineering drawings which I have on microfilm. Hope this is some help to you all. Edited October 14, 2016 by Karl H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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