Roy vd M.

Ok let's get this over with... the sources that say / prove : RLM 02 - The Spanish 1938 111E looks to have 02 (light grey, really). So it seems probable that at one point indeed the (early) Luftwaffe bombers were 02. - http://www.britmodel...ockpit-colours/ : someone says "before 1941: 02. After 1941: 66". - http://www.swannysmo...m/Painting.html: He111 Al B1 C1 Dl El Fl G1 J1 Pl H-1 thru H-5 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Green-Gray 02. He111 H 6 thru H 23/R/Z(zwilling) series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 - The booklet "Luftwaffe Colors 1935-1945" by E. Brown Ryle III says: "RLM 02: (...) used as color of aircraft interiors, cockpits, wheelwells, and landing gear throughout most of the war. (...) As it was produced and used both internatlly and externally throughout the Luftwaffe's existence, it may be "the paint of the Luftwaffe." - Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P17 shows a P which almost surely has a 02 cockpit (b&w). - Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P27 shows a P which looks to have a 02 cockpit (b&w). RLM 66 cockpit and bomb bay, RLM 02 rest of interior - http://www.warcolorphotos.com/407-heinkel-he-111 looks cockpit 66, bomb/radio rooms unknown; however the 111 type and build date is unknown. - Restored Gardermoen P-version has a 66 cockpit, 66 bomb racks, apparently a 02 bomb bay room (!), 02 radio room and 02 landing gear bay. Very most probably, the restorers have been influenced by the RLM instructive "everything that the pilot sees has to be painted 66". Pilot can see the bomb racks but not the rest of the bomb bay room. - D.B. Andrus' link a couple of posts above this one looks 66. Bomb/radio rooms unknown. - http://www.britmodel...ockpit-colours/ : someone says that "before 1941: 02. After 1941: 66" is wrong, being that all P's have 66. - http://www.britmodel...ockpit-colours/ : someone says "A friend of mine had a book about Luftwaffe colours, and it had in it a copy of an RLM directive from mid 1940 (if I remember correctly) stating some thing along the lines of... "...all areas of the cockpit visible to the pilot are to be painted RLM 66 Schwarzgrau..." - Kagero (Red Series Kagero Decals) shows a 66 interior at the front page, as well as 66 cockpit interiors in the 3 model drawings and probably 02 in the radio room. - The booklet "Luftwaffe Colors 1935-1945" by E. Brown Ryle III says: "66 Interior cockpit color, including canopy framing, from 1940 to end of war. Used externally in various roles on various types of aircraft. Also allowed for substitute use on spinners (instead of RLM 22), propellers (instead of RLM 70), landing gear wheels (rims) and external repairs in later stages of the war when fighter production increased." - Although very difficult to see, it seems that on page 322 of the book "Luftwaffe Cmouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Volume 2" there's a 66 cockpit colour P-version. - The picture at P65 below of "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Photo Archive 1 showing a juni/july 1940 111H clearly shows 66. It's a night bomber though. But still. - The picture of a 111P cockpit in "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Photo Archive 1" P132 looks like it's 66 although it's not clear. There are some lighter parts (black-white photo) but that could be the sun. Comparison with picture on the previous side, a Ju52 cockpit from the 30s, shows that the Ju52 looks lighter overall. I'd reckon 70% chance for the P cockpit to be painted 66. - Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Photo Archive 1. P136 about the Ju87B: "The Ju87B entered service in 1938 (...) Interestingly, none of the identifying colours had been added to the rim of any instrument, nor had the instrument maintenance system of letter/number symbols been added to the instrument panel, indicating that this was probably one of the early B model machines. By 1938, internal colouring for military aircraft was RLM 02, although the type, but not colour, of lacquer was changed that same year (see Volume One, page 207). This cockpit is clearly 66 (although b&w-picture). - Same book, page 141, regarding another plane type but still interesting and relevant: "The interior of the Si 204 (...) colouring was 02". It's a non-cockpit picture. The Siebel was produced from April 1942, being sufficient proof for me that also in the later war years 02 was used for non-cockpit interior. Next page shows a Si 204D instrument panel part in 66. - Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P13 shows a P-1 which seems to have 66 cockpit. - Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P29 top shows a P which looks to have a 66 cockpit (b&w). - The RLM directive of 1941 should perhaps not be seen as a changing document. No earlier versions of the directive are known; the year of issue of the 1941 version is erroneously named "1938". It is well possible that also the earlier planes would have 66 as interior colour. The 1941 directive could be 'codification' of existing practice. So it seems that - the safest choice for a P-version would be a 66 cockpit, 66 bomb bay and 02 further interior - just like the restored Norwegian specimen. - full 02 would also be realistic. - the P could be considered as a transition model. Hopefully this information gathering is useful for someone beside myself

Thanks Doug, but how can we know that their interpretation is correct? It's still a restoration. Today I bought a couple of books about Luftwaffe colours but also they don't give a definite answer.

Hi D.B., Thanks for that picture which is new to me. Although we can't be sure (shadows) it does seem to be 66. What I could also do and what I probably have to do is depict a plane in its later years, which was originally RLM02 but was overpainted RLM66. Does any of you guys know whether in that case the bomb bay and radio / rear gunners' rooms should also be in RLM66? For example, 1943 situation?

Looking nicely weathered already!

Hi Ro, Maybe this is a small start, an underground hangar: http://b-29s-over-korea.com/firebombing/firebombing4.html

If I don't find a definite answer I think I'll (again) use RLM02 because there are more sources that point in that direction than RLM66, and I think it's a colour with more shading / detailing potential than RLM66.

Here the one person says early/late (before/from 1941): RLM02/RLM66 And someone else says that that's wrong. That the P's seem to have RLM66... Again someone else: " A friend of mine had a book about Luftwaffe colours, and it had in it a copy of an RLM directive from mid 1940 (if I remember correctly) stating some thing along the lines of... "...all areas of the cockpit visible to the pilot are to be painted RLM 66 Schwarzgrau..." now I'm starting to doubt the RLM02... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/34761-luftwaffe-cockpit-colours/ But then another site says: He111 Al B1 C1 Dl El Fl G1 J1 Pl H-1 thru H-5 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Green-Gray 02 He111 H 6 thru H 23/R/Z(zwilling) series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 http://www.swannysmodels.com/Painting.html

Hi Matt, what I understand from different sources is that RLM02 was used until 1941. The plane I'm trying to reproduce was built in 1940. See e.g. http://modelingmadness.com/splfeat/color/cockpits/german.htm If you have any source saying that there was an exception for bombers, please let me know because I'll start the painting (of the bomb bay) soon...! Thanks in advance..

Great work!

Thanks Thammond, very pleased with you three's input... Just took an up-close look at the other picture I have: Judging from that picture I think that the top right part is in position. The lower right part has been derailed. As regards the left door I agree with you. Hope that this research isn't considered as nagging or boring, I just want this to be as correct as possible. And it gives me joy to try to reconstruct this, especially with you guys' help.

Loic and Harrison, thank you guys for sharing your thoughts. This is very helpful, I think you are on the right track! Could be a system just like this: But then with two parallel systems, one top and one below. One thing I notice now is that also the right door in the picture seems to have been dispositioned from its slot. Another thing I notice is that the two wheels at the bottom seem slightly further away from each other than the wheels on top. @Loic: I'm not totally sure whether there supposed to be pulleys on the left side, but do notice the door cutout at the top left side, apparently preventing the door from bumping into the pulley wheel. A similar cutout was done at the top right side.

Thanks Loic! Really appreciate your ongoing input! Yes they are sliding on rails. What puzzles me is the four wheels on the corners of both top and bottom rails. They seem to be a pulley system or so, with cables running between the wheels. My GUESS is that the pilot or the bomber / gunner would have a handle (most probably in the top column) to open the door from a distance. And in some technical way probably the door would slide back open automatically? Springs? I'm really puzzled, that's why I can use any help you guys can give me Oh yeah one more thing... it appears that the four corner wheels are positioned in front of the door. Strange... must have a reason.

Beautiful and huge diorama...

Hmm... should probably have posted a question about a B17, Bf109 or P51. He 111 seems to have lost its momentum. I'm very happy with all compliments from you guys, it really boosts my motivation, but I'm slightly disappointed that nobody seems to take the trouble to answer to the door-question, even if it'd only be a guess.

Nobody have any idea how the door mechanism would / could have worked? Even if you have just a theory, that's more than welcome!

All you B17-builders are artists! This build has its own greatness... love to watch and learn.

Great to see someone who knows to handle a microscope while building. Really nice and hat off for you taking all the trouble of reproducing these details.

This must be the definite Uhu model... it's really worked out perfectly! Curious to see if you can improve it further still...

Hi all, Just received a very fast response from Mr U. Hafner of Luftfahrt-Archif Hafner, on a question whether they have any blueprints available for the Heinkel 111. Their website should be given a look (or two!) as it features a vast list of manuals, drawings and other information, reproduced, regarding 1928-1945 Luftwaffe airplanes and accessories. The 111 alone is featured 30 times (!) in downloadable PDFs and in paper. Prices seem very reasonable. If there are blueprints, this (or a museum) would be the place to find them. Mr Hafner answered my question as follows: “(…) Von der He 111 gibt es leider keine Zeichnungen mehr. Nirgends! In keinem Museum, in keinem Archiv. So ein Zeichnungssatz für die He 111 würde aus mehreren tausend Zeichnungen bestehen, und das wäre eigentlich unbezahlbar. Aus den Handbüchern und Ersatzteillisten erhalten Sie umfangreice Informationen, aber meistens ohne Maßangaben. Das bedeutet, dass Sie für ihre Detailkonstruktion sogenannte Referenzmaße benötigen die dann in die Konstruktion umgesetzt werden müssen. (…)†This means that no blueprints have survived of the 111. Compliments to the brave people at Gardermoen and elsewhere for attempting to restore this massive a plane with so many details without the best of reference materials available. At least I now know that I'll have to work with the pictures I have and the pictures and videos I'll make when I'll visit London next month. Thanks to Mr Hafner for the quick and very clear answer! Do have a look at http://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/

Thanks Kent and an interesting point you are making. I had read that statement (it's actually an estimation) about a year ago, being for me the reason to cut out Revell's doors in both the 1st and 2nd bulkhead. Happy to do so, as it draws light into the bomb bay room. But the more I studied pictures and video material, the more I've begun to doubt it. From references of that period (pictures / video) I have only seen the doors installed. They were always open but installed nonetheless. Looking at the neutral / contra's of having the doors removed: Neutral: - Guttorm says: "I really think that was up to the crew (...) I know that B-17 crew only removed the doors when entering operational status and arrived at combat theatres... most likely the same thing was done with German planes but this I can't be sure of... but I don't think you do any wrong by removing the doors." - The remaining P2 and H-20 don't have their doors anymore. For the H-20 the reason could be to have more space for the troops to be seated (for the P2 that's no argument as the place where the doors would go would have no other use as it directly borders the bomb bay structure). The P2 was left in the mountains for years. According to Aero Details: "(...) souvenir hunters cut away and hauled off just about any part of the airplane that could be easily carried."Those thin doors would have been easy souvenirs. So there's no proof that the doors were ever removed by the crew. Contra: - Original contemporary footage known to me almost always shows the doors present (but open). - Eduard had the doors built in (be it that they use only small slice of the door, to be glued behind the bulkhead to give the impression of a door almost slid all the way to the side). - Removing the doors had no real advantage, as they were of the sliding type. They could just leave them in the open position rather than having to open/close them all the time. - The only remaining 111E (Museo de Aeronautica Y Astronautica, Madrid) still has its doors! - Revell had the doors built in. I have encountered no 'proof' that the 1st bulkhead's doors were ever removed. Perhaps other bulkheads' doors but I strongly doubt that the 1st's were. That being said, I think that the 111E's bomber/front gunner's door could have been removed more often. That's a massive 'normal' door entered from the cockpit (!). So, everything taken into account (mainly the contemporary pictures) my conclusion is that it is by all means correct to have the doors in the plane but fully opened. By the way, in my search I have not encountered A SINGLE picture of the doors closed. The only reason why not to include the doors in the kit build is that they are practically invisible once the fuselage is closed. That must also be the reason why Eduard only included the part of the door which is visible from the cockpit. So guys... any ideas / educated guesses how the pulley system would have worked are much appreciated...

I know the feeling

And another question.. does anybody have any idea how this door pulley / cable system would have worked? Practically speaking, I'd like to know where the cables go and how they are connected. Answers are much appreciated, also if you're not sure they are accurate! Or if you're just guessing... in the end I'll have to do something so an educated guess would help me. Matt's answer (see above) for example is wonderful as it keeps me from investing a lot of time and energy trying to depict something that isn't realistic.

Breathless!

This for example is a nice shell exit hole:

Thanks Matt for this answer, very helpful! I like it to be as realistic as possible and I hadn't thought about this (even didn't know about it). Perhaps I'll find a 20mm or 30mm damage example that will open up the fuselage enough so it shows the inside. I also don't know if a bullet or shell will go all the way through the wing->tank->wing. Any thoughts on this subject are welcome...