Problems and solutions to large scale scratch building

[Kostucha]

Hi.

 

I've brought this topic up a number of times in an odd sort of way in the past. I want to get right down to business here with what I'm contemplating. Some of the reasoning, and so on and so forth... *have I lost anyone yet?*

 

The 1/24 Scale is limited in what's out there. We all know it. We also know why, be it interest in the scale, or for the most part, the simple size and cost (read: a big factor why most that want the Mosquito but don't get it is both of those reasons - so big, and a price tag to boot). So, let's not dwell on what we know.

 

What about something that could be done? Well, we've heard many people talking about it over the years, here and there (there being other sites as well)... limited run kits, vac forms, etc., etc., etc...

 

Now before anyone rolls their eyes about the prospect of me wanting to make limited run vac forms of 1/24's... that's not what I'm talking about here... I want to open up this discussion mainly about the short comings, how I see it, but mainly, what the general populus of this wonderful site and its members (that's you all), what you see as the problems.

 

The way I'd like to do it is have the problems, and possible suggestions, ideas, or insight (possibly even solutions that some of you out there have made) to nippin this in the butt, and making it both more realistic for these kits (be it 'one-of's' or limited runs) for some of us to make. A collective bit of information that hopefully, if compiled right, wont make it such a daunting challenge - not just in 1/24, but any scale for that matter. I'm just picking 1/24 because admittedly, I'm heavily biased towards this scale.

 

The way I look at the problem of a completely scratch built and viable aircraft to make is not the subject, or the scale, but quite simply, the shell of it. The shape of the aircraft. The guts are the easy part It's getting the right shape, the right dimensions, and the right thickness of the fuselage and wings to make the model look the way it's supposed to look.

 

This problem can be solved as we've seen many different ways. Cutting the fuselage out from wood and shaping it in, and then removing the cabin/cockpit areas (read: Again, SkyKings Trimotor). But, what about something that is a complete shell, or have enough panels/bomb bays opened up to make it one, such as a Ju 88 or He 111 from the Luftwaffe, or a P-61, B-25, -26, or other similar aircraft. The answer is - and I'm sure you're all saying it - vac forming.

 

The problem that arises though, is the rediculous amounts of complaints I've read researching this matter - ya, lots of homework has gone into this for some time now - about the kits that are out there, no matter the scale.

 

My question then about this specifically, is it lack of quality, lack of reference, or the manner in which they are usually made (meaning, with fuselages for example, the traditional two halves of the fuselage joined together), all of these things, or even more problems?

 

Would better research, a more developed vac form, and a more multi-piece fuselage (for example) work better? With a little thicker plastic or provisions for reinforcement incorporated into the pieces solve this problem?

 

 

 

Another one, engines. Mainly Radial engines. Recreating the air cooling fins on the cylinder casings so that all the cylinders look the same seems to be a daunting challenge. In a large scale, EVERYTHING is seen. So, would a specifically shaped punch, putting out a large 18-24 layer stack of sandwiched fins be the solution? Yes, it would, but that's a lot of punching for a P&W R-2800... and with no real aftermarker radials out there, especially not for the large variety of radials, the solutions seem limited, and those that are there, are quite difficult and mind numbing, but unless there is a good resin mold to replicate these parts off an accurate master, there is no other real solution... unless someone were to make that, right?

 

This is not to take away at all from the amazing work we've seen on this site at all. I just want to be clear about this.

 

I'll leave it at that for now, and look forward to your feedback on this matter. Again, I hope that this can really become something that will help any and all who are interested in something like this...

 

 

Who knows... perhaps in the near future, we'll start to see a scratch-built P-61 or an Me 110 show itself in 1/24.

 

 

Cheers and happy modeling!

Mark.

[spacewolf]

Hey Mark

 

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at but I'll bite and give you a few thoughts. I'm 51, been modeling sense age 7, done flying models (free flight, control line & R/C) and plastic kits of everything over the years as well as figures. I've scratch built large scale models in both built up and vacu form. I've talked with a lot of modelers all over the world and shop owners and what has come out of all that is this.... Only about 20 % of modelers who buy kits do anything more than just build them.... most just build because it's a hobby they enjoy and they don't want or feel the need to do more.

 

The 20 % who do aftermarket/ modify tend to be an amazing cross section of misfits running from those who just want a different decal set to those who go totally AMS on a kit and it ends up being a jewel that we all ooh and awww over. Most guys (and the few girls) who do this will modify or fix a part, build something small but for the most part it would seem that's about as far into it as they go.

 

In that 20 % however are the true nuts.. a small group who either want something badly enough that isn't available , those who either want the challenge or have never been told "you can't do that ! " There is no one 'type' who scratch build, they come from all walks of life.

 

Contrary to what most say, scratch building is not hard. If you can build a kit OOB than you can scratch build. All you are doing is making the parts to make the model... each part can be looked upon as a 'kit' in and of itself. The problem as I see it is that people in general get intimidated at the complexity of such a project and it looks like too much work. They end up defeating themselves before they start.

 

Those who have built wooden ships or flying models have an appreciation of what is needed, good drawings, care and attention in carving/ cutting the parts and the labor that goes into a project. Building a one off kit is not cheap which is why I'll spend $300 on a resin kit at times rather than spend the time and money to scratch build it.

 

Not everyone is good at carving masters, I struggle with that myself. Good drawings and templates are VERY much needed. Then comes the question of vacu forming which is an art form in itself to my mind.

 

When making a master the more formers/ ribs the better as you get smoother transition of curves and angles. The part can be carved out of solid material or formers cut out and either covered or filled to produce the master form. Planning is essential, deciding the parts break down and how everything will go together. Some parts are too fine even in 1/24th to form and that means building up the part as a one off or getting into resin casting.. more time, cost and complexity.

 

Engines, both inline and radial (and rotary) are models themselves. Mentioning disc stacking brings to mind a guy some years ago in FSM magazine who totally detailed a A6M5 Zero in 1/72... he used that method to build the engine, over 400 parts ! It was a jewel... but not something I'd attempt..at least in that scale ! You can spend a lot of time and effort just doing an engine in 1/24... it all depends on how nuts you want to go. If you need more than one the best thing to do is cast the parts, but then you start affecting the model through weight....everything is a trade off in strength and materials.

 

There are huge learning curves, lots of research needed, trial and error to see what works and what doesn't....you gotta REALLY want to do it. It's fun, rewarding and usually you wind up with a unique model that only you or someone who scratch builds can truly appreciate. The best compliment you can get is someone at a show asking " where did you get that kit ?"... but it is not for everyone.

 

Looking at the guys here on LSP ... I have to say some of the best modelers in the world, great people who tend to be above average because they are building in what has been up until the past year or so, a very limited field. Other than the kits that were produced in the 60's and 70's there has not been a lot of kits available so they had to scratch build parts, modify the kits, or make the kits from scratch and that created a community of people who knew what it took to build what you wanted and how difficult it was. They share kits, parts, info and support because it is such a small group who do this kind of work..... and tend to have a different mind set because they are different from the average modeler.. they have to work harder for what they want and are willing to do that. They appreciate anyone who gets into the larger scales and shows the determination to stretch themselves into new skills... they are a much more accepting group of people.

 

Having said that, the ones who gear up and build totally from scratch are a smaller part of this group. Complexity, cost, time.. it all affects who does what. I think a lot of the guys would like to but don't have the time, money or place to do it....or the room.

 

Getting into 1/24 kits eats space like nothing else (a model that takes up 2 square feet of space is BIG ! )....except perhaps 1/48 bombers ! The built kits tend to dominate a room so display becomes a problem... where do you put them ?... so although a lot of people want them or purchase them they tend to stay on the 'to do' shelf because of their size.... add into that scratch building/ vacu forming and I personally think it becomes just too much for most people.

 

These are just my thoughts/ opinions. Feel free to agree or disagree. It'll be interesting to see what others think on the subject.

 

Cheers

 

Vaughn

[JRutman]

I think that the conclusion that you came to in your thread about 1/24 scale vacs that have matched fuselage halves with a good,accurate shape in thick enough plastic is perfect. Well said.

If you search on this site you will find input by my buddy Fred Yarema. He works exclusivly in 1/24 and has come to the same conclusions. He does a model from scratch about once a year and usually offers a limited run of the kit as he is building it. In the past he has offered some great stuff and I believe he has a current project for sale now. Sorry I can't remember the a/c he is doing but I am sure others can?

He is one of the best builders out there.

J

[Derek B]

I think that the conclusion that you came to in your thread about 1/24 scale vacs that have matched fuselage halves with a good,accurate shape in thick enough plastic is perfect. Well said.

If you search on this site you will find input by my buddy Fred Yarema. He works exclusivly in 1/24 and has come to the same conclusions. He does a model from scratch about once a year and usually offers a limited run of the kit as he is building it. In the past he has offered some great stuff and I believe he has a current project for sale now. Sorry I can't remember the a/c he is doing but I am sure others can?

He is one of the best builders out there.

J

 

Hello Kostucha,

 

I can pretty well concur with Vaughn's and Jerry's points of view. Someone has recently posted a link to a French modeller who has entirely scratch built a 1/32 Dassault Rafael using only plastic card (no vacforming from what I see) - This is a good a method as any I have seen to reproduce subtle double curvatures without having to resorting to vacforming. There are as many ways and methods of tackling any given scratch build problems as there are aircraft to choose from, it all depends upon what you wish to eventually achieve. The best thing to do is go for a conversion or heavy detail project - this will provide you with all of the skills and techniques required to scratch build - then go for a full scratch build project when your confidence is sufficiently built up (something with flat sides - or minimal curvatures (like a Mig-25 or similar) is pretty 'doable' for a first choice)...Just get stuck-in, you'll very quickly build up the skills and learning curve!

 

Good luck

 

Derek

 

(PS Jerry was thinking of Freds latest 1/24 vacform, which is the Supermarine Attacker)

[LSP_Ray]

Search for builds by Fred Yarema, Frank Mitchell, and Lee White for some of the best in scratchbuilding. Not to mention Radu and Derek's threads!

[Kostucha]

Thank you everybody for your input thus far! Excellent, excellent stuff!