Heinkel He 111

[Roy vd M.]

Hi D.B.,

 

Thanks for that picture which is new to me. Although we can't be sure (shadows) it does seem to be 66. 

 

What I could also do and what I probably have to do is depict a plane in its later years, which was originally RLM02 but was overpainted RLM66. 

 

Does any of you guys know whether in that case the bomb bay and radio / rear gunners' rooms should also be in RLM66? For example, 1943 situation?

Edited January 23, 2014 by Roy vd M.

[DougN]

Definatelty RLM 66 for the cockpit area of the He111.  Take a look at the photos of the "P" restoration at the museum in Norway stickied at the top of this subforum for lots of good color info.

Edited January 23, 2014 by DougN

[Roy vd M.]

Thanks Doug, but how can we know that their interpretation is correct? It's still a restoration. 

 

Today I bought a couple of books about Luftwaffe colours but also they don't give a definite answer. 

[Roy vd M.]

Ok let's get this over with... the sources that say / prove :

 

RLM 02

- The Spanish 1938 111E looks to have 02 (light grey, really). So it seems probable that at one point indeed the (early) Luftwaffe bombers were 02. 

- http://www.britmodel...ockpit-colours/ : someone says "before 1941: 02. After 1941: 66".

- http://www.swannysmo...m/Painting.html: He111 Al B1 C1 Dl El Fl G1 J1 Pl H-1 thru H-5 series: Cockpit areas are RLM Green-Gray 02. He111 H 6 thru H 23/R/Z(zwilling) series: Cockpit areas are RLM Black-Gray 66 

- The booklet "Luftwaffe Colors 1935-1945" by E. Brown Ryle III says: "RLM 02: (...) used as color of aircraft interiors, cockpits, wheelwells, and landing gear throughout most of the war. (...) As it was produced and used both internatlly and externally throughout the Luftwaffe's existence, it may be "the paint of the Luftwaffe."

- Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P17 shows a P which almost surely has a 02 cockpit (b&w).  

- Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P27 shows a P which looks to have a 02 cockpit (b&w).

 

RLM 66 cockpit and bomb bay, RLM 02 rest of interior

- http://www.warcolorphotos.com/407-heinkel-he-111 looks cockpit 66, bomb/radio rooms unknown; however the 111 type and build date is unknown.

- Restored Gardermoen P-version has a 66 cockpit, 66 bomb racks, apparently a 02 bomb bay room (!), 02 radio room and 02 landing gear bay. Very most probably, the restorers have been influenced by the RLM instructive "everything that the pilot sees has to be painted 66". Pilot can see the bomb racks but not the rest of the bomb bay room.

- D.B. Andrus' link a couple of posts above this one looks 66. Bomb/radio rooms unknown.

- http://www.britmodel...ockpit-colours/ : someone says that "before 1941: 02. After 1941: 66" is wrong, being that all P's have 66.

- http://www.britmodel...ockpit-colours/ : someone says "A friend of mine had a book about Luftwaffe colours, and it had in it a copy of an RLM directive from mid 1940 (if I remember correctly) stating some thing along the lines of... "...all areas of the cockpit visible to the pilot are to be painted RLM 66 Schwarzgrau..."

- Kagero (Red Series Kagero Decals) shows a 66 interior at the front page, as well as 66 cockpit interiors in the 3 model drawings and probably 02 in the radio room.

- The booklet "Luftwaffe Colors 1935-1945" by E. Brown Ryle III says: "66 Interior cockpit color, including canopy framing, from 1940 to end of war. Used externally in various roles on various types of aircraft. Also allowed for substitute use on spinners (instead of RLM 22), propellers (instead of RLM 70), landing gear wheels (rims) and external repairs in later stages of the war when fighter production increased."

- Although very difficult to see, it seems that on page 322 of the book "Luftwaffe Cmouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Volume 2" there's a 66 cockpit colour P-version. 

- The picture at P65 below of "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Photo Archive 1 showing a juni/july 1940 111H clearly shows 66. It's a night bomber though. But still.

- The picture of a 111P cockpit in "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Photo Archive 1" P132 looks like it's 66 although it's not clear. There are some lighter parts (black-white photo) but that could be the sun. Comparison with picture on the previous side, a Ju52 cockpit from the 30s, shows that the Ju52 looks lighter overall. I'd reckon 70% chance for the P cockpit to be painted 66.  

- Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Photo Archive 1. P136 about the Ju87B: "The Ju87B entered service in 1938 (...) Interestingly, none of the identifying colours had been added to the rim of any instrument, nor had the instrument maintenance system of letter/number symbols been added to the instrument panel, indicating that this was probably one of the early B model machines. By 1938, internal colouring for military aircraft was RLM 02, although the type, but not colour, of lacquer was changed that same year (see Volume One, page 207). This cockpit is clearly 66 (although b&w-picture). 

- Same book, page 141, regarding another plane type but still interesting and relevant: "The interior of the Si 204 (...) colouring was 02". It's a non-cockpit picture. The Siebel was produced from April 1942, being sufficient proof for me that also in the later war years 02 was used for non-cockpit interior. Next page shows a Si 204D instrument panel part in 66.

- Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P13 shows a P-1 which seems to have 66 cockpit.  

- Heinkel He 111 Photo Archive (Airdoc) P29 top shows a P which looks to have a 66 cockpit (b&w).

- The RLM directive of 1941 should perhaps not be seen as a changing document. No earlier versions of the directive are known; the year of issue of the 1941 version is erroneously named "1938". It is well possible that also the earlier planes would have 66 as interior colour. The 1941 directive could be 'codification' of existing practice. 

 

So it seems that

- the safest choice for a P-version would be a 66 cockpit, 66 bomb bay and 02 further interior - just like the restored Norwegian specimen. 

- full 02 would also be realistic. 

- the P could be considered as a transition model.

 

Hopefully this information gathering is useful for someone beside myself

Edited January 23, 2014 by Roy vd M.

[LSP_Ron]

Thanks Doug, but how can we know that their interpretation is correct? It's still a restoration. 

 

Today I bought a couple of books about Luftwaffe colours but also they don't give a definite answer. 

 

It's correct, they were very conscious of being 100% accurate. The airframe was a belly landed plane from the artic so the cockpit was recovered in original paint

[Roy vd M.]

Hi Ron, the P2 we see on the pictures here is actually another plane than the belly-landed one. The belly-landed plane was a H2 and is now in Germany being under restoration. Because there's a lot of unclarity in this respect (P1/P2? H?) I'll give a short overview. The type 2 (P and onward) planes on display are:

 

ON DISPLAY

- P1/P2 (nr. 1526) which is originally a P1 that was later reconverted into P2, currently located in Gardermoen. This is the plane photographed by Guttorm. It was recovered from the Norway mountains in 1976. The result we see on the photos was achieved in a 6 year thorough restoration. 

- H20 (nr. 701152), also being a reconversion. It started life as a bomber, later became a carrier. This plane is now on display in London at the RAF museum. 

 

Only of those two planes are detailed photographs available (and of the E1, but that's a type 1 plane). The other 111s which are available are stored or under construction:

 

NOT ON DISPLAY

- H2 (nr. 2320) which was flown by Arthur von Casimir. This was the one that belly-landed and the one recovered from Jonsvannet lake in 2004. It is stored in Berlin and not currently available for public view.

- P2 (nr. 5883) which is currently being restored in Austria, using parts of a Casa 2.111B. It was recovered in Norway in 1974, so two years before the Gardermoen P1/P2. Last known plans are to let this one fly again!

 

That having been said, in my Aero Details book I read, regarding the P1/P2:

 

"The restoration team took great pains to return the aircraft to a condition as close to original as they could, using genuine parts from other He111s whenever possible,; and basing reconstructions of destroyed portions on original manufacturer's blueprints. Still, the right engine cowling, main gear bay doors, navigator's seat and much of the cockpit instrumentation remains unrestored for lack of parts. Nevertheless, over 90% of the aircraft has been brilliantly brought back to its original condition, making it a priceless reference source."

 

The manufacturer's blueprints don't exist anymore, according to Udo Hafner of Luftfahrt-Archiv Hafner. Having seen pictures of their vast collection divided over 3 bookcases, only comprising of manuals, blueprints etc. regarding Luftwaffe aircraft, and his explicit mentioning that there are also no museums or other archives that have the blueprints, that everything was lost, I think Aero Details probably means that the replacement part lists (featuring drawings) and blueprints of weaponry / gauges were used. Still, the rest of the quote makes clear that the Gardermoen people have really done their best to restore this plane very thoroughly. That, in combination with my previous post's conclusion that the 66 cockpit + bomb racks -> 02 rest of interior-finish is probably the most realistic, leads me to the final decision to do it like that.

 

So my Heinkel will be 66 cockpit + bomb racks and 02 rest of interior. Thanks again @ scvrobeson / Matt for bringing up this issue and changing my vision. That's what a forum is for!!!

 

("Roy, are you not tired of yourself or of this highly superfluous and unnecessary search for color variations? Taking hours and hours of research?" -> "No dear family members, finally having a pure and true answer built on proof makes all of this worthwhile :D")

 

 

Time spent building, planning, drawing: 45H. Studying: 20H.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Roy vd M.

[Roy vd M.]

By the way, the above also means that Revell's claim that their P-version is a P-1 is not totally correct, insofar it's fully based on the Gardermoen version, that having been reconverted into a P2.

[Roy vd M.]

Today I received a 3.100 page DVD with instruction manuals, handbooks, part replacement lists etc. regarding the Heinkel. This was the best 65 euro I ever spent on any modelling thing, ever! Going through the replacement list and its drawings my eyes went open wider and wider. I immediately contact Mr Hafner, owner of the archive where I purchased this DVD, thanked him and asked permission to copy a couple of pages from the replacement parts list for you guys to take a look at. 

 

Really, I've been looking for drawings of the 111s interior for over a year. Never been able to find more than a fes detail drawings. I knew that the replacement parts book was going to be a good source so I was eagerly awaiting for it... but it really outdid all of my expectations. Remarkable. Incredible. Necessary. Are three words that just come to my mind. Everything is in there, all the tiny details, hundreds of drawings... I'm still in awe. The replacement list is 750 pages long and frankly I didn't take a look at the other 2.350 pages of the DVD. So probably that's going to be a surprise also. 

 

A few examples (again, with permission from Mr Hafner), starting with the solution to the door issue. This is a lower-quality cutout from a larger page:

 

 

So, horizontally aligned wheels on the left side... that explains some bits And apparently it's just a sliding door system, without operation from the cockpit.

 

Then, some drawings regarding the cockpit:

 

 

 

There are literally hundreds of precise drawings, all detailed... even many of the smaller parts featured in the overview drawings are drawn in detail on another page. The numbers on the pictures refer to descriptions on the next page. 

 

The archive doesn't only have a Heinkel He 111 replacement part book, it has replacement books regarding many Luftwaffe planes. Invaluable and unmissable for the ultra-detailer and even for those who are less into interior details. Of course there are just as many (or more) pics of exteriors. Be sure to have a look at www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de.

 

I am in no way commercially or otherwise involved or connected to Mr Hafner's archive, I just feel that the best way of showing my enthusiasm is to make you guys aware of this incredible treasure chest. 

[Loic]

Good for you !

Where did you buy this DVD from ?

[Roy vd M.]

This DVD, photocopies of the originals and everything else can be ordered here: www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de.

 

Choose your Luftwaffe plane, take a look at the list of available documents, order, wait 2 days (that's how long shipment from Germany to the Netherlands took) and enjoy! For example for your Dornier 335, they have the aircraft manual (205 pages) plus the plane's blueprints in a 29 euro DVD package. 

 

One more thing: the Heinkel's "building manual" is also invaluable. Many photographs of details that cannot be found online or in publicly available books. 

Edited January 25, 2014 by Roy vd M.

[Loic]

Thanks !!

[Roy vd M.]

After a lot of thought today about how to solve the "severely detailed bomb bay room, little to see" problem. Having a bullet-holed panel removed -> no, because the plane would have to be jigged because of stability issues. Depicting a shell-pretruded bomb bay -> no, because the shell would have exploded and left tens of holes in the fuselage whereas I'd like the shell to cut through the ceiling. Depicting a lost light-shell: wasn't able to find any reference pictures or information. 

 

So the solution: one bomb rack is simply removed. In the diorama, the bomb rack is seen standing on a pallet or on the floor of the hangar. The other bomb rack is still in situ. Reason: the P2 is converted into a P3 (trainer version without bomb bays) or perhaps a people transporter. 8 versions of the P3 were made as conversions from existing P1's and P2's. 

 

Now I can put all my energy in further (elaborately) detailing the bomb bays which I will detailing I will report on later. The full interior of the bomb bay room shall be visible from the windows and from the underside of the plane. 

[Roy vd M.]

The last couple of weeks I've done a lot of reading in the bomb (bay) manuals and I must say it's really eye-opening. Quite special to finally know how the systems worked and what the several crew members' functions were. 

 

I have thoroughly amended the first post of this thread, to bring you guys up to date as regarding status of plans, ideas and used literature. 

[brahman104]

Utterly inspiring build you're doing here mate. I really like your attention to all the small details!

 

Craig

[Roy vd M.]

Hi Craig, thank you very much! I really have the feeling like I haven't done very much and this thread is mostly about things I plan to do... but to be fair for myself I've just been doing research. That's part of the fun... but the real fun will start quite soon! I'll then completely modify the Eduard Bomb bays. They are a great basis and I really look forward to detailing them. 

 

I decided to turn the 1st post of this thread even more into an overview by adding an index. All picture / knowhow posts in this thread have been indexed by theme. I really hope that'll not be only beneficial for me but also for those who rather click on their subject of interest rather than going through 8 pages of posts -many of which are not relevant for their build- while they can't be sure whether they'll find what they are looking for.

 

The introduction and end text were moved to the second post.

 

See the result here: http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=48155&p=524818

Edited February 14, 2014 by Roy vd M.