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Chuichi Ichikawa's Ki-61-1Tei discussion


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#16 Shawn M

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 06:02 PM

its also discussed well in the book "Meatballs and Deadbirds"

 

if I recall, and will check tonight, the author/photographer included a sketch of it from his time with the actual airframe


Edited by Shawn M, 09 February 2018 - 06:06 PM.

I dont suffer from AMS, I revell in it..get it...Revell


#17 Gazzas

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 08:17 PM

I had a book written in Japanese about markings and camouflage. It stated that after a short time, the red on the Hinomaru turns to a dark rust colour before turning to a slight reddish tinted brown. The US manufacturers had problems with green and dark blue paint until late in the War. The Japanese apparently added red to the blue green mix as being problematic. As far as the clover, the Japanese did have an association with clovers, there is even a Japanese clover. We shouldn’t rule out the use of a clover as a personal marking on a Japanese aircraft. After all they like using cherry blossoms, another flower.

I've never heard of this color change in the hinomaru.  I'm building a Ki-61 and will be using masks to paint the Hinomarus and other red markings. 

gonna see if I can replicate it without it looking too bad.

 

Gaz


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#18 Juggernut

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:14 PM

Another problem with Historians, including Anthropologists and Archeologists in America and Europe, especially true with my Native Culture, is writing about other Cultures based upon their own ideas without asking the people of their Culture and Beliefs. Have any of you asked any Japanese Aviation Historians or read any Japanese References? We are not talking ancient History and many pilots and crewmen are still alive.

 

What You speak of is called bias....

 

Chuichi Ichikawa isn't alive any longer having perished in a civilian airplane crash in 1954 if I remember what I've read correctly.  There is zero information about the ground crew at Chofu airfield that is specifically about the subject aircraft.  I have not heard of any pilot's from the 244th Sentai that are still alive but even if there are, it's hopelessly impractical to assert that amateur historians have the time, resources and ability to travel to Japan, seek out these remaining individuals and ask them about details they most likely don't remember correctly (if at all) from 75 years ago.  Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable; especially 75 years removed from the events that took place.  Any historian worth his/her salt will tell you that eye witnesses testimony, while given a lot of weight, needs to be corroborated at the very least by another primary or secondary source to be considered authoritative.  The best primary source material is written by the hand of the person that was there, contemporaneously.  Gallager was at Chofu airfield and wrote what he saw.  That I do not doubt.  The question of whether the aircraft pictured in this thread is that aircraft or another one which has been substituted for the "Kelly-Green" Shamrock (and it wasn't my observation).

 

I remember my first new vehicle, a 1982 Chevrolet S-10.  I remember it had an Isuzu engine and that it was white with a blue bench seat and black rubber floor mats.  I also remember a few other details about it but do I remember what color the license plate was that was on the truck?  Nope, not one bit.  Being from NY, it could've been gold ochre/blue or red,white & blue or blue/white.  Do I remember what color the grille was?  Nope, it was 36 years ago when I bought the vehicle and 31 years ago when I traded it in for another vehicle.  See my point?

 

A great deal of my IJNAF and IJAAF references are in Japanese.  However, since I cannot read Kanjii (or whatever it's written in), I have to rely on the translations the author/publisher provides.  I may or may not agree with what's written but I can understand it.  I don't personally know any native Japanese aviation historians and unless they are bilingual or I had a translator, it really wouldn't matter if I did know any.  I also freely accept authors who are well versed in Japanese aircraft history and possess a great deal of knowledge on the subject.  Jim Lansdale and Robert Mikesh are just  two that come to mind off the top of my head.  There are several other researchers who I consider experts and will take their observations/conclusions at face value.  On the other side of the coin, there are still more that I have little or no confidence in.  I will not provide names of these persons to protect their work and prevent my bias from creeping into other opinions.


Edited by Juggernut, 09 February 2018 - 11:16 PM.

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"You can always tell a pilot.... But you can't tell him much." Pat Malara Sr. (1925 - 1997) USAAC CBI, Owner/Founder, Riverside School of Aeronautics


#19 Juggernut

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:20 PM

I've never heard of this color change in the hinomaru.  I'm building a Ki-61 and will be using masks to paint the Hinomarus and other red markings. 

gonna see if I can replicate it without it looking too bad.

 

Gaz

 

Back in the early to mid 1990's there was a rather large group (including a major decal manufacturer at that time) that advanced the theory of the rust brown Hinomaru.  By and large I think that theory has been dispelled through extant relic evidence and color photography (within it's given limitations).


"You can always tell a pilot.... But you can't tell him much." Pat Malara Sr. (1925 - 1997) USAAC CBI, Owner/Founder, Riverside School of Aeronautics


#20 Shawn M

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 12:14 AM

just checked, page 25 of "Meatballs and Dead Birds" there is a black and white sketch profile and the following description:

 

"its color can best be described as a "chocolate bar" brown all over, and possessing brilliant red Hinomarus and, most remarkably, a large "Kelly-green" shamrock painted on both sides. The brightest-of-greens shamrock was bordered in white and located in front of the national markings on the sides of the plane. The vertical tail surface had the insignia of the 244th Sentai painted in white, and a five inch band of white around the fuselage infront of the tail surfaces"

 

Photographed Sept of 1945 at Chofu Army Air Base near Tokyo

 

James P. Gallagher, Stackpole Books

 

Page 2 shows the photo in discussion


I dont suffer from AMS, I revell in it..get it...Revell


#21 Juggernut

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 12:39 AM

just checked, page 25 of "Meatballs and Dead Birds" there is a black and white sketch profile and the following description:

 

"its color can best be described as a "chocolate bar" brown all over, and possessing brilliant red Hinomarus and, most remarkably, a large "Kelly-green" shamrock painted on both sides. The brightest-of-greens shamrock was bordered in white and located in front of the national markings on the sides of the plane. The vertical tail surface had the insignia of the 244th Sentai painted in white, and a five inch band of white around the fuselage infront of the tail surfaces"

 

Photographed Sept of 1945 at Chofu Army Air Base near Tokyo

 

James P. Gallagher, Stackpole Books

 

Page 2 shows the photo in discussion

 

Thanks for the quote... I have the book but no access to it at the moment.  Again, I wonder if the aircraft he's talking about is possibly mistaken for the one on the photograph (not my premise).  I suppose it's possible that it's a different aircraft in the photo...


"You can always tell a pilot.... But you can't tell him much." Pat Malara Sr. (1925 - 1997) USAAC CBI, Owner/Founder, Riverside School of Aeronautics


#22 CATCplSlade

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 01:40 AM

Not to muddy the waters, but to me the thing in front of the fuselage hinomaru looks like some kind of straps hanging down the side. I don't see a clover at all.

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#23 Juggernut

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 01:48 AM

Not to muddy the waters, but to me the thing in front of the fuselage hinomaru looks like some kind of straps hanging down the side. I don't see a clover at all.

 

No worries at all. That's what this discussion is all about.  It's another point of view and all are welcome.  It also adds credence to the premise that the aircraft in the photograph is NOT the one described by James Gallagher.  The one he describes may be an entirely different aircraft than the one shown.  Unless another photograph of this aircraft turns up, it's doubtful that the issue will ever be positively put to rest.


"You can always tell a pilot.... But you can't tell him much." Pat Malara Sr. (1925 - 1997) USAAC CBI, Owner/Founder, Riverside School of Aeronautics





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