Anyone got any period photos of Spitfires with oil canning?

[Derek B]

[quang]

So what?
You would probably find on the internet a photo of Yul Brynner WITH hair. I didn’t say that Yul NEVER had hair, just that it’s not the Yul everybody used to know. 

[thierry laurent]

Please do not forget R6915 flew during most of the war. And even after four years, you do not see a lot of surface deformation. As I cannot identify the flying one (Vb?), I do not know the plane service length when the shot was taken. However, besides many small bumps in the wings (more particularly close to the gun/mg doors) you can see a little bit of oil canning close to the wing tip. So you see this is possible. However, to me, this is not representative of a BoB Spit whereas this may be anything but not questionable on some other types of airframes, an obvious example being many Lancasters.

[quang]

2 hours ago, MARU5137 said:

But the photos are good and helpful folks trying to assist others

Indeed. But a photo alone has no value unless one knows when, where and under which circumstances it had been taken. 

[Derek B]

8 hours ago, thierry laurent said:

Please do not forget R6915 flew during most of the war. And even after four years, you do not see a lot of surface deformation. As I cannot identify the flying one (Vb?), I do not know the plane service length when the shot was taken. However, besides many small bumps in the wings (more particularly close to the gun/mg doors) you can see a little bit of oil canning close to the wing tip. So you see this is possible. However, to me, this is not representative of a BoB Spit whereas this may be anything but not questionable on some other types of airframes, an obvious example being many Lancasters.

 

 A little more info on the images I posted. First, the black and white IWM image of the banking Spitfire VB:

 

 

Spitfire Mark VB, R6923 QJ-S, of No 92 Squadron RAF based at Biggin Hill, Kent, banking towards the photographing aircraft. R6923 was originally a Mark I, converted to a Mark V after serving with No. 19 Squadron and No. 7 Operational Training Unit in 1940. It was shot down over the sea by a Messerschmitt Bf 109 on 22 June 1941.

 

So, although it is a Mk.VB aircraft, it was originally a Mk.IA aircraft which had seen service during the BoB, therefore, the stressing may be considered typical or representative for the aircraft type in general. Additionally, it is also a well known aircraft (in Mk.IA form) in its own right.

https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/R6923



As for Spitfire IA R6915, its wartime history is well known:

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/spitregistry/spitfire-r6915.html

This aircraft scored six aerial victories during the BoB and what makes it unique is the fact that it is one of the very few surviving Spitfire airframes to retain its original (unrestored) WW II BoB paint finish, which makes it pretty special and therefore representative of the type.

 

HTH

Derek

Edited November 28, 2022 by Derek B

[nmayhew]

On 11/23/2022 at 9:58 AM, thierry laurent said:

Oil canning generally appears during service life. There are exceptions but this is the main rule. If you look at the service life duration of a majority of Spitfire airframes, they simply did not have the time to see such an evolution. Actually, this is the same for paint damage going down to metal. Paint quality could vary but as all metal parts were primed, paint was scratched and showed color variations but this very rarely go to the metal surface in some months, barely some weeks! Consequently, even if this brings life, weathering and aging of some scale models is simply inaccurate, a good example being BoB Spitfires.

are you saying that these BoB Spits did not get heavily weathered, and did not see wingroot chipping?

 

I am not sure I followed exactly what you were saying 

[thierry laurent]

2 hours ago, Derek B said:

 

 A little more info on the images I posted. First, the black and white IWM image of the banking Spitfire VB:

 

 

Spitfire Mark VB, R6923 QJ-S, of No 92 Squadron RAF based at Biggin Hill, Kent, banking towards the photographing aircraft. R6923 was originally a Mark I, converted to a Mark V after serving with No. 19 Squadron and No. 7 Operational Training Unit in 1940. It was shot down over the sea by a Messerschmitt Bf 109 on 22 June 1941.

 

So, although it is a Mk.VB aircraft, it was originally a Mk.IA aircraft which had seen service during the BoB, therefore, the stressing may be considered typical or representative for the aircraft type in general. Additionally, it is also a well known aircraft (in Mk.IA form) in its own right.

https://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft/R6923



As for Spitfire IA R6915, its wartime history is well known:

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/spitregistry/spitfire-r6915.html

This aircraft scored six aerial victories during the BoB and what makes it unique is the fact that it is one of the very few surviving Spitfire airframes to retain its original (unrestored) WW II BoB paint finish, which makes it pretty special and therefore representative of the type.

 

HTH

Derek

That was my point. Both planes had years of service! If we are talking about BoB state, I do not consider them to be very representative. A large majority of Spits were quite new and a lot disappeared after weeks or just some months of use. To me, it is true there are not tons of Spitfire pictures taken during that period but the ones I know show planes looking in a very good state.

[thierry laurent]

52 minutes ago, nmayhew said:

are you saying that these BoB Spits did not get heavily weathered, and did not see wingroot chipping?

 

I am not sure I followed exactly what you were saying 

Exactly and to me this is logical. Many were very recent, if not brand new. They were well maintained from grass fields, not desert full of dust and gravels or coral islands. And finally, a lot did not have the time to be heavily weathered because they had very quickly a terrible fate. So, neither the amount of time or theatre of operations would result in heavy use weathering for a very large majority of them. As I wrote this is possible as a minority of them arrived years before (e.g. Squadron 19) but not probable for a very large majority of such airframes.

[Derek B]

35 minutes ago, thierry laurent said:

Exactly and to me this is logical. Many were very recent, if not brand new. They were well maintained from grass fields, not desert full of dust and gravels or coral islands. And finally, a lot did not have the time to be heavily weathered because they had very quickly a terrible fate. So, neither the amount of time or theatre of operations would result in heavy use weathering for a very large majority of them. As I wrote this is possible as a minority of them arrived years before (e.g. Squadron 19) but not probable for a very large majority of such airframes.

 

Hi Thierry.

 

In a number of cases, yes, I agree that some airframes may not have had sufficient time to become extremely weathered, however, even a few weeks service during that critical and demanding period of time would still have resulted in a degree of weathering, if only superficial or light.

 

As to the topic of surface skin distortion (the so-called 'oil canning'), this could, and was, evident on many airframes, even after only a relatively short number of flying hours from new. Therefore, it may not have been unusual for a relatively new aircraft to show little sign of paint wear and tear,  but still exhibit a degree of surface skin distortion. 

 

Derek

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Derek B

[Pete Roberts]

Personally I am in Thierry’s camp with this, but I suspect this is a subject where participants will have to agree to disagree. 

 

At the end of the day, it is your model. Unless you are building a specific subject based on solid photographic evidence, I say build it as you wish. To each, their own.

[Pete Roberts]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:51 PM, DrDave said:

But there are pre war early mark 1s with the wing root worn down to bare metal…

 

Was it? Spitfires were primed with light grey paint before being camouflaged. Are we seeing bare metal, or the primer? 

 

I have read several accounts of airmen being given pots of paint and told to touch up camouflage ‘dings’ - yes, during the Battle of Britain

 

I’m sure if we look hard enough we’ll find a picture of a plane that will support a wide variety of weathering and wear and tear on these aircraft. Gordon Olive flew a Mk I for virtually all the BoB and well into 1941. I would like to have seen the state of that plane. Others lasted one sortie.

[Martinnfb]

Not sure if oil canning, but pretty shot nevertheless 

 

[Uncarina]

On 11/23/2022 at 4:22 AM, MARU5137 said:

I am not sure whether this will help but I have this "book".

https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5a3134b40672a700015a5d31/5ea6cf979a5ca9e4fe65a619_Spitfire Bookbrochure.pdf

 

Has various Spitfire  photos in color  and black and white.

I admit  I haven't read it for a good number of years... hope it helps somewhat.(I doubt it though ).

 

 

MARU5137 

 

edit:

you can zoom  in on photos et al..

Thanks Maru! I just ordered three Wingleader books, including the Spifire I edition.

 

Cheers,  Tom

[MikeMaben]

3 hours ago, Pete Roberts said:

               ...  I have read several accounts of airmen being given pots of paint and told to touch up camouflage ‘dings’ - yes, during the Battle of Britain

Hop over to the Hurricane thread. There are numerous photos of a/c that have great hunks and chips of paint missing.

There were several sorties a day and between sorties they sat out in the rain and wind. What's the 'weather' like in GB

in autumn ? I hear it can be rather unpleasant.

[thierry laurent]

40 minutes ago, MikeMaben said:

Hop over to the Hurricane thread. There are numerous photos of a/c that have great hunks and chips of paint missing.

There were several sorties a day and between sorties they sat out in the rain and wind. What's the 'weather' like in GB

in autumn ? I hear it can be rather unpleasant.

Hi Mike. I fully agree but out of my memory some batches of Hurricanes made by a subcontractor showed paint quality control issues. I'm not remembering a similar issue with Spitfires even if this could have applied to some late Mk.I. Early Mk.I were made before the war with a high quality control from Supermarine and Mk.II were only made in one very controlled and standardized production site (Castle Bromwich). If ever there were similar issues with some early Spits, this was in between but I do not remember having ever seen any evidence.