The Hawker Hurricane

[mozart]

She’s a IIB Guy. Lots of photos for sure and I hope some go-pro footage if I’m allowed to take it! It was going to be a Spitfire or Hurricane and since this is the only one in the world it just had to be. White Waltham is a great little airfield too and the right side of London for me. 
 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by mozart

[scvrobeson]

I'll openly admit to being Hurricane ignorant, but which variants of the II had the bigger wing guns?  Was it just the C/D, or was it on the Bs as well?

 

 

Matt 

[Archimedes]

58 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Hi Paul

the Bentley drawings are rightly regarded as the best done,  see the cutting from when they were first published in 1980 below.  Yes, I'm talking about the drawings of K5083, which do show all the prototype changes, and development... except the wing.

The straight wing leading edge on the initial prototype was mentioned in the linked thread and was the first I had heard of it

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235061223-hurricane-prototype-in-148th-where-do-i-start/page/2/#elControls_3475399_menu

 

I then got the Goulding book, and went on an image hunt,  it was only last week when I was looking by chance through an old Scale Models I found an underside shot of the prototype, with no sweep.    I've just not got around to posting it.

 

There may well be images of the prototype when fitted with gun wings that then have the sweep, which was standard for all versions, which would make sense,  as the link suggest this was done for centre of gravity reasons.      

 

If I sound vague, it is because this is an area that is vague,   and I'm surprised it was missed by Bentley.     

    

People have been kind enough to call me "an expert" ,  which is flattering, but I'm not, but what I really do is collate available data,  and I spend a lot of time searching about and I have often been surprised at what gets missed,  including things I have looked at many times myself.....    

 

I intended to get up to the RAF Museum library in Hendon in late March 2020...but that got postponed for some reason!   

 

Anyway, the story of the Bentley drawings.... and why others often have had problems,  a case in point was the Airfix 1/72 Hurricane IIC kit from about 2010, which used some awful plans, but in a respected book... sadly seems no-one at Airfix bothered to looks at the photos in the book..... 

 

I think this information was only ever published in Scale Models when the drawings were first published. 

 

HTH

Thank you so much for coming back on this (and so quickly!). Interesting indeed! I am impressed that you are bringing whatever data there is to this.  I guess my question is: did Arthur miss the straight wing or did he draw it representing it at a later time when the guns were installed and (perhaps) the wing sweep back was introduced.  Thank you for outlining that this is a murky period in the Hurricane’s development. Arthur’s article also makes that clear. the article also appears to indicate that he may not have had access to prototype drawings. 

 

Kind regards,

Paul

 

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

Just now, scvrobeson said:

I'll openly admit to being Hurricane ignorant, but which variants of the II had the bigger wing guns?  Was it just the C/D, or was it on the Bs as well?

 

 

Matt 

define bigger?

 

for each wing.

the B wing has 4 x 0.303 inboard, and 2x 0.303 mounted further out.   An A wing is just the 4 x 0.303 inboard. 

the C wing has 2 x 20mm cannon mounted inside the wing

the D has a 40 mm cannon in a pod under the wing, with a 0.303 MG for sighting in the wing.   This wing was developed into the the 'universal stores wing on the Mk.IV, which could be fitted with the 40 m gin pods, rockets, bomb carriers, drop tanks and smoke dispensers.

 

the access  panels on the B vs C wing wing are very different.   the D and IV wing is similar to the C wing on top, with cutouts underneath,  

 

see  here for more detail

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page/44/#elControls_3069353_menu 

 

 

[Tissue and Dope]

Completely off topic, but my interest in the Hurricane was kindled in the early 1960s by reading ‘The Hurricane Story’ by Paul Gallico.  I’ve NO idea how accurate the book was - I can’t remember if the dihedral was mentioned ;-) .

 

[Archimedes]

1 hour ago, mozart said:

Talking of “all things Hurricane”, this has just arrived in the post:

 

 

 

My 75th birthday present…..sooo looking forward to it! Flight of a lifetime.

 

 

I’d say I am not unutterably jealous but that would be dishonest of me! Have a great time Max!!!

 

Best regards,

Paul

[Troy Smith]

1 minute ago, Archimedes said:

Thank you so much for coming back on this (and so quickly!). Interesting indeed! I am impressed that you are bringing whatever data there is to this.  I guess my question is: did Arthur miss the straight wing or did he draw it representing it at a later time when the guns were installed and (perhaps) the wing sweep back was introduced.  Thank you for outlining that this is a murky period in the Hurricane’s development. Arthur’s article also makes that clear. the article also appears to indicate that he may not have had access to prototype drawings. 

 

 

Since the drawings show the wing sweep, I presume this was something Arthur missed.   His drawings do not show the guns fitted.    

 

This photo is superb! 

 

and shows a few details not clear in other images, as well as confirming the straight wing fitted initially. 

I think the black object on the starboard wing is a thermometer 

Note this has a walkway strip only on the starboard side, and this is contrary to the Bentley drawings above. 

This made me wonder if the above image had been flipped.....

 

but this, which is correct way round, also look to have the walkway strip on the starboard side.....

 

see what i mean about at times spotting something that was always there just you never noticed.....  

 

 

[Archimedes]

19 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Since the drawings show the wing sweep, I presume this was something Arthur missed.   His drawings do not show the guns fitted.    

 

This photo is superb! 

 

and shows a few details not clear in other images, as well as confirming the straight wing fitted initially. 

I think the black object on the starboard wing is a thermometer 

Note this has a walkway strip only on the starboard side, and this is contrary to the Bentley drawings above. 

This made me wonder if the above image had been flipped.....

 

but this, which is correct way round, also look to have the walkway strip on the starboard side.....

 

see what i mean about at times spotting something that was always there just you never noticed.....  

 

 

Thanks Troy - this kind of stuff is fun to investigate! Great points on the photos you showed.  Although I usually don’t like lines on photos I also took the liberty of straightening the image I found to vertical and putting a horizontal line across the leading edge with the line touching the centre section.  I have some caution on this as the photo is not quite directly overhead. It does however appear to show a slight sweepback or am I kidding myself here?

 

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[Derek B]

1 minute ago, Archimedes said:

Thanks Troy - this kind of stuff is fun to investigate! Great points on the photos you showed.  Although I usually don’t like lines on photos I also took the liberty of straightening the image I found to vertical and putting a horizontal line across the leading edge with the line touching the centre section.  I have some caution on this as the photo is not quite directly overhead. It does however appear to show a slight sweepback or am I kidding myself here?

 

Kind regards,

Paul

 

 

Agreed Paul, it does appear to have sweep back on the leading edge of the outer mainplanes. Troy, do you have a definitive image or other data to prove that the leading edge of the prototype Hurricane was straight from root to tip? (my interpretation of all of the photographs and images I have seen appear to indicate that it does have sweepback as per the A L Bentley drawings?).

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

[Rick Griewski]

Dang this turned out to be a great thread.  Thanks so much gentlemen. 

[Archimedes]

5 minutes ago, Derek B said:

 

Agreed Paul, it does appear to have sweep back on the leading edge of the outer mainplanes. Troy, do you have a definitive image or other data to prove that the leading edge of the prototype Hurricane was straight from root to tip? (my interpretation of all of the photographs and images I have seen appear to indicate that it does have sweepback as per the A L Bentley drawings?).

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

Thanks Derek. I have met Arthur once or twice so have messaged his website to ask his thoughts.  He probably has far better things to do with his time than answer random questions about drawings he did 42 years ago but ye never know! 

 

Best regards,

Paul

Edited November 21, 2022 by Archimedes

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Derek B said:

 

Agreed Paul, it does appear to have sweep back on the leading edge of the outer mainplanes. Troy, do you have a definitive image or other data to prove that the leading edge of the prototype Hurricane was straight from root to tip? (my interpretation of all of the photographs and images I have seen appear to indicate that it does have sweepback as per the A L Bentley drawings?).

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

 

2 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Thanks Troy - this kind of stuff is fun to investigate! Great points on the photos you showed.  Although I usually don’t like lines on photos I also took the liberty of straightening the image I found to vertical and putting a horizontal line across the leading edge with the line touching the centre section.  I have some caution on this as the photo is not quite directly overhead. It does however appear to show a slight sweepback or am I kidding myself here?

 

Kind regards,

Paul

 

 

Scale Models, January 1974, page 28 

Has several Hurricane pages but not mentioned on cover!! 

Only pulled it out to have read on with a coffee in the sun(In November...)  and then there was this.....

Sorry, no scanner set up 

 

Has the very famous pic of a Yugoslav Hurricane banked over for comparison.  a quick look at the Goulding drawings in Interceptor*, laying a sheet of paper show the wings to have a slight sweep and not being dead straight, but less sweep than we are used to.  

It's late, i'll see if I can check the angle later.  (if I can find a protractor)  The above shows this, not totally straight, but less sweep. 

 

Paul, if you can get some response out  of Mr Bentley that would be fantastic.

 

 

 

* the book can be got for under £5 in the UK,  and is a really good addition to the library if you like this sort if thing...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interceptor-Single-seat-multi-gun-Fighters-Multi-gun/dp/071101583X

 

there's one here for £3.53 posted....

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30549291491&searchurl=an%3Dgoulding%2Bjames%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Troy Smith

[scvrobeson]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

the C wing has 2 x 20mm cannon mounted inside the wing

 

This version, so it's the IIC.  Hopefully Revell will release that version at some point.

 

 

Matt

[Derek B]

44 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

Scale Models, January 1974, page 28 

Has several Hurricane pages but not mentioned on cover!! 

Only pulled it out to have read on with a coffee in the sun(In November...)  and then there was this.....

Sorry, no scanner set up 

 

Has the very famous pic of a Yugoslav Hurricane banked over for comparison.  a quick look at the Goulding drawings in Interceptor*, laying a sheet of paper show the wings to have a slight sweep and not being dead straight, but less sweep than we are used to.  

It's late, i'll see if I can check the angle later.  (if I can find a protractor)  The above shows this, not totally straight, but less sweep. 

 

Paul, if you can get some response out  of Mr Bentley that would be fantastic.

 

 

 

* the book can be got for under £5 in the UK,  and is a really good addition to the library if you like this sort if thing...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interceptor-Single-seat-multi-gun-Fighters-Multi-gun/dp/071101583X

 

there's one here for £3.53 posted....

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30549291491&searchurl=an%3Dgoulding%2Bjames%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1

 

 

Thanks Troy. I did notice that the leading edge of the outer mainplanes on the prototype aircraft appear to have less sweepback than the production aircraft, so this is useful confirmation.

 

I must admit that the specific image that you have provided does appear to show or indicate that the inboard leading of the wing is straight, forming a continuous root to tip sweep (of particular note are thr dark coloured inboard leading edge areas - more about this later). As for the book you mentioned, I do actually have a copy of it (somewhere!).

 

I cannot recall from memory at the moment the full development history of the Hurricane, however, I belive that at that time, like the Spitfire, the aircraft may have originally Benn designed to use the RR Goshawk engine utilising an evaporative cooling system. Those dark areas on the leading edge of the inboard wings may well have been intended for the evaporative cooling tanks (much again like the Spitfire), but we're not used when the decision was made to switch to the much more reliable and powerful RR Merlin engine?

 

It would be interesting to find some confirmation of this theory somewhere that might shed some light if this was a reason to initially flown the aircraft (perhaps only the first flight or first few) with a straight wing, and then subsequently flying it with a modified inner/centre section mainplane?

 

Cheers

 

Derek 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Derek B

[Archimedes]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

Scale Models, January 1974, page 28 

Has several Hurricane pages but not mentioned on cover!! 

Only pulled it out to have read on with a coffee in the sun(In November...)  and then there was this.....

Sorry, no scanner set up 

 

Has the very famous pic of a Yugoslav Hurricane banked over for comparison.  a quick look at the Goulding drawings in Interceptor*, laying a sheet of paper show the wings to have a slight sweep and not being dead straight, but less sweep than we are used to.  

It's late, i'll see if I can check the angle later.  (if I can find a protractor)  The above shows this, not totally straight, but less sweep. 

 

Paul, if you can get some response out  of Mr Bentley that would be fantastic.

 

 

 

* the book can be got for under £5 in the UK,  and is a really good addition to the library if you like this sort if thing...

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Interceptor-Single-seat-multi-gun-Fighters-Multi-gun/dp/071101583X

 

there's one here for £3.53 posted....

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30549291491&searchurl=an%3Dgoulding%2Bjames%26sortby%3D17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1

 

 

Thank you Troy. This is gold-dust!  I agree there appears to be a slight sweepback on the prototype but that it is more pronounced on the production versions. my protractor says roughly 2 degrees sweepback on the prototype in the photo above but about 3 degrees on production Mk1s and on the Bentley drawings. I'd value your measurements on this though to either validate or correct mine. It was interesting reading the 1980 Bentley article as what comes across is almost constant tinkering with the dimensions of the basic design by Hawker as the aircraft was developed.

 

Kind regards,

Paul