The Hawker Hurricane

[Rick Griewski]

Hmmm I do not think or feel that I am a “bleeding heart” but I could be wrong if I was told directly.  Anyway a question for a Hurricane special interest person.  If the wing has more or less gun openings in the wings for the intended type, does adding a gun hole change ammunition loading panel configuration on the top of the wing. I do not want to correct that error.  

[Kagemusha]

1 hour ago, Rick Griewski said:

Anyway a question for a Hurricane special interest person.  If the wing has more or less gun openings in the wings for the intended type, does adding a gun hole change ammunition loading panel configuration on the top of the wing. I do not want to correct that error.  

 

 

There were two spent ammo ejector holes in the undersides.

 

This how Fly tackled the issue, vinyl masks to scribe the panels/ejector holes, and resin gun barrels, but no bomb racks included.

 

[VMA131Marine]

1 hour ago, Rick Griewski said:

Hmmm I do not think or feel that I am a “bleeding heart” but I could be wrong if I was told directly.  Anyway a question for a Hurricane special interest person.  If the wing has more or less gun openings in the wings for the intended type, does adding a gun hole change ammunition loading panel configuration on the top of the wing. I do not want to correct that error.  

The Mk IIb has additional panels for gun an ammunition access for the extra outer two .303s on each wing. There are additional cartridge case ejection ports on the wing underside.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, coogrfan said:

For us non-Hurricane boffins, how much work would be required to backdate this to a BoB Mk.I? 

 

Quite a lot.  See below.  

 

Note, there were a few Mk.IIa's used from September 1940, which could be done very easily from the kit,  if you want a BoB machine.

Here are the Hawker production figures for Mk IIs built during 1940:

Aug. 12

Sept. 34

Oct. 24

Nov. 47

Dec. 54

Total 171

B of B casualties from the early batches were:

Z2308 111 Sqn damaged in combat 9.20 am 4 September (A/c repairable)

Z2309 111 Sqn FTR from operational sortie circa 9.15 am 4 September (P/O J.Macinski MIA)

Z2315 111 Sqn F/landed following combat with Bf 109s at 9.00 am 4 September (A/c repairable) coded JU-E

Z2345 421 Flt F/landed due to unknown cause at 4.55 pm 26 October (A/c repairable) coded LZ-H

Z2352 421 Flt F/landed due to unknown cause at 2.51 pm 19 October (A/c repairable) coded LZ-U

If memory serves, the LZ code of 421 Flt was hyphenated.

And some other Mk II trivia:

F/flight of prototype (P3269) 11 June 1940"

 

see 

 

The nose is shorter, but the length change is in the panel in front of the cockpit, and the front wing fillets are different as well,   and the radiator is shallower with a different intake and a smaller carb intake.   the kit spinner would only be good for some late build Mk.I's. The tailwheel and radiators are Mk.II standard items.

 

The drawings are wrong, the air intake has a faring at the rear, rather then moving back.

 

this is Mk.I extended into a Mk.II

 

and before, showing the cut line,  

 

this is the underside of the nose, the red lines are the engine bearers, coming off the main spar, the area in this triangle is flat. 

 

this shows the engine bearers

 

thisshows the flat area, and how the bearer is at the bottom of the fillet

Also of note is the radiator, which is the Canadian type.   The British type is more of a rectangle, as seen below

 

 

 

Fly do a 1/32 Mk.I, which while not the easiest of builds, maybe not much more work than hacking about the kit, and does have all the relevant bits.

 

 

Also, the Hurricane Mk.I is much more complex in detail than is usually realised,  like 6 different props and spinners.....

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

does need a rewrite, but does cover all the variations..  

 

@Radub  can you tell  Revell that the vast majority of Mk.IIB's are interally aluminium paint excpet for the cockpit rear bulkhead and upper cockpit walls. 

The Austin built MkIIbs look to be all grey green though.  This is from, the films of the production line, linked in the link below

see 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page/2/#elControls_1682406_menu

needs a rewrite,  but covers gives an idea of what batch had what.  

 

Links to the factory film, these are IIb' s  (so same as Revell kit) from the 300 built by Austin, most went to Russia, but a few ended up in SEAC.

 

1 - https://youtu.be/YBugc28Eqj0

2 - https://youtu.be/ay6xmfMnBZ0

3 - https://youtu.be/X-N3raGe9p0

note this link to time of serial and roundel application  https://youtu.be/X-N3raGe9p0?t=182

4 - https://youtu.be/kN7bbFRUSCY

 

 

For those wondering about other variants

wing types

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234963507-all-the-hurricane-questions-you-want-to-ask-here/page/44/#elControls_3069353_menu

 

A final note. Hurricane are poorly documented in the kind of detail modellers want,   the Mk.I is very well covered in the Wingleader Photo Archive, 

https://www.wingleader.co.uk/shop/hurricane-mki-wpa3

 

but the Mk.II and in particular the IID/ Mk.IV are not well covered.   In particular DO NOT trust Valiant Wings Airframe and Miniature book, it's frequently wrong in many of the details, eg the drawing don't show the Mk.II air intake and are particularly bad on the Mk.IV and Canadian built Hurricanes. 

 

HTH

[mozart]

And there was me planning to build the prototype……! 

 

 

but I'll definitely be modelling this one:

 

 

since my father flew her.

Edited November 21, 2022 by mozart

[Rick Griewski]

Wowa Mozart,

your father must have be a very, very young man.  

[quang]

16 minutes ago, Rick Griewski said:

Wowa Mozart,

your father must have be a very, very young man.  

You would have known him as Amadeus Sr 

[Troy Smith]

55 minutes ago, mozart said:

And there was me planning to build the prototype……! 

 

 

 

 

Ah, the prototype..... as initially flown, and seen in the above image, had a different wing, being straight,   this was brought up on Britmodeller, as being noted by James Goulding in his book Interceptor.  

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235061223-hurricane-prototype-in-148th-where-do-i-start/page/2/#elControls_3475399_menu

Images online are not that clear, I recently found a shot from below of the prototype in an old model magazine, a Scale Models from 1974, which confirms this, helpfully with another underside shot for comparison.... it doesn't mention this of course, but it's very clear once you know. 

 

This also means that this is an error in the Bentley drawings. 

 

Note (and not much use unless you consider 1/48th Large Scale) but the 1/48th Monogram kit has this straight leading edge wing.... Not much use for anything else but it has this as starting point.

 

Anyway, making the prototype as first flown is a major amount of work, in any scale. 

 

Regarding Max other choice, 

this is the other side

 

discussions on the RATG Hurricanes  

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234950889-hurricanes-of-the-ratg/

more photos and discussions....

[mozart]

29 minutes ago, Rick Griewski said:

Wowa Mozart,

your father must have be a very, very young man.  

21 to be precise Rick. 

[Archimedes]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Ah, the prototype..... as initially flown, and seen in the above image, had a different wing, being straight,   this was brought up on Britmodeller, as being noted by James Goulding in his book Interceptor.  

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235061223-hurricane-prototype-in-148th-where-do-i-start/page/2/#elControls_3475399_menu

Images online are not that clear, I recently found a shot from below of the prototype in an old model magazine, a Scale Models from 1974, which confirms this, helpfully with another underside shot for comparison.... it doesn't mention this of course, but it's very clear once you know. 

 

This also means that this is an error in the Bentley drawings. 

 

 

 

Hi Troy - are you referring to Sheet 2 of the 4 sheet series that Arthur Bentley produced? It is Marked as K5083 and you are correct the wing is drawn with the same small sweep back as the Mk1 which photos show, as first flown, had a straight wing with no sweep-back to the leading edge. Wasn’t this changed later in the prototype’s life to have a marginally swept back wing which became the Mk1 configuration?  I am interested to learn your thoughts on this.

 

Kind regards,

Paul

Edited November 21, 2022 by Archimedes

[Troy Smith]

42 minutes ago, Archimedes said:

Hi Troy - are you referring to Sheet 2 of the 4 sheet series that Arthur Bentley produced? It is Marked as K5083 and you are correct the wing is drawn with the same small sweep back as the Mk1 which photos show, as first flown, had a straight wing with no sweep-back to the leading edge. Wasn’t this changed later in the prototype’s life to have a marginally swept back wing which became the Mk1 configuration?  I am interested to learn your thoughts on this.

 

Kind regards,

Paul

Hi Paul

the Bentley drawings are rightly regarded as the best done,  see the cutting from when they were first published in 1980 below.  Yes, I'm talking about the drawings of K5083, which do show all the prototype changes, and development... except the wing.

The straight wing leading edge on the initial prototype was mentioned in the linked thread and was the first I had heard of it

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235061223-hurricane-prototype-in-148th-where-do-i-start/page/2/#elControls_3475399_menu

 

I then got the Goulding book, and went on an image hunt,  it was only last week when I was looking by chance through an old Scale Models I found an underside shot of the prototype, with no sweep.    I've just not got around to posting it.

 

There may well be images of the prototype when fitted with gun wings that then have the sweep, which was standard for all versions, which would make sense,  as the link suggest this was done for centre of gravity reasons.      

 

If I sound vague, it is because this is an area that is vague,   and I'm surprised it was missed by Bentley.     

    

People have been kind enough to call me "an expert" ,  which is flattering, but I'm not, but what I really do is collate available data,  and I spend a lot of time searching about and I have often been surprised at what gets missed,  including things I have looked at many times myself.....    

 

I intended to get up to the RAF Museum library in Hendon in late March 2020...but that got postponed for some reason!   

 

Anyway, the story of the Bentley drawings.... and why others often have had problems,  a case in point was the Airfix 1/72 Hurricane IIC kit from about 2010, which used some awful plans, but in a respected book... sadly seems no-one at Airfix bothered to looks at the photos in the book..... 

 

I think this information was only ever published in Scale Models when the drawings were first published. 

 

HTH

[LSP_Kevin]

3 hours ago, mozart said:

And there was me planning to build the prototype……! 

 

Me too, Max! Using the old Revell kit...

 

Kev

[mozart]

Talking of “all things Hurricane”, this has just arrived in the post:

 

 

 

My 75th birthday present…..sooo looking forward to it! Flight of a lifetime.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

4 minutes ago, LSP_Kevin said:

 

Me too, Max! Using the old Revell kit...

 

Kev

Given the amount of hacking needed, plus all new cowl panel lines, a raised detail kit maybe a better start, as at least you don't need to fill existing panels lines!  

I think the basic shape is decent.

 

Possible the old  Revell has made a mistake (I'd seen a post on BM suggesting this)  and made the canopy to deep,  which would be right for the prototype,  which has a deeper canopy, or did initially.   

I've not examined the kit closely,   though I have the remains on one I built age 9, and another I was going to open up as teenage project...  they are "somewhere" in the house.....

 

Maybe worth looking into 1/32nd rib tape decals for the fabric wing, and some flying model maybe the source of that two blade prop, I think the original prototype one was different to the two blade unit used on initial production. 

 

Perhaps worth a thread of it's own.

HTH

[geedubelyer]

20 minutes ago, mozart said:

Talking of “all things Hurricane”, this has just arrived in the post:

 

 

 

My 75th birthday present…..sooo looking forward to it! Flight of a lifetime.

 

 

Wow Max, that’s brilliant 

What marque is the two seater? I can see a second Revell kit on the horizon converted to your ride in a similar way that Iain converted the Spitfire.

 

Hope you get the opportunity to take loads of photos on the day. Have a fabulous time