More 109 Questions - Metal Stab vs. Wooden Stab...and What About the Rudder...How would I know?

[Juggernut]

Ok, in reading Vincent's review of the ZM Bf109G-14, he mentions that late war G-14's, in some iterations, had "wooden stabs".  Now whether he means horizontal, vertical or both I do not know.  I think I can figure out the difference between a wooden vertical stab and the metal one (no panel lines) but what's the difference between a wooden and metal horizontal stab?  I am not seeing anything that's showing me a distinct difference between one or the other in my references so I put it to the community for assistance.  Now what about the rudder?  In my Revell Bf109G-10, it comes with several options and the one I'm choosing has the two fixed tabs and an inset tab with a bulged bottom (Wolowski on pgs 5 and 6 calls this a Type 5 or "T5" rudder).  The kit has very visible rib stitching and reinforcing tape.  I should think a wooden rudder would not have that?  Were these rudders wooden, metal, both?  Again, how can I tell?  I wouldn't want to remove the rib stitching detail for a fabric covered metal  rudder but by the same token, I don't want to show rib stitching on a wooden rudder that wouldn't be there.  The entire rudder may be fabric covered (and doped in place) but there'd be no rib stitching through plywood skins (unless I've got the wooden rudder thing all wrong).  Can someone give me a crash course in these tail feather anomalies?

 

Thanks!

 

REFERENCE:

 

Wolowski, K.(2010).Bf109 late versions camouflage and markings, Mushroom Model Publications, UK (pp 5, 6)

Edited November 16, 2022 by Juggernut

[denders]

Hmmm, are you assuming that the wooden rudder is a sheathed item, with perhaps with thin plywood? I think I would assume that both rudder descriptions are about the frame and that both are fabric covered and would have the stitching, etc.

 

Edit: Missed your comment about plywood skins.

Edited November 16, 2022 by denders

[D.B. Andrus]

Hi Tim,

 

Corrected post

 

 

Wooden horizontal tailplane : no rivets, metal reinforcing plate on leading edge. Note weep holes on underside:

 

 

 

 

Wooden rudder: Some without stitching, plywood covered, but possibly fabric on top:

 

 

Some with wooden frame w/ fabric and stitching:

 

 

Tall metal vertical stabilizer, a reproduction, yet accurate:

 

 

 

 

Tall metal rudder: metal frame w/ fabric covering and stitching.

 

 

HTH,

Damian

 

 

[pvanroy]

The wooden fin indeed differs externally from the enlarged metal fin by the absence of any panel lines.

 

According to Vogt (2012, p. 154), in all cases, the rudder was fabric-covered. However, the metal and wooden rudder frames were different in shape: the metal frame had a rounded ‘heel’ (like the small rudder), whereas in the wooden frame, it was angular and pointed (note that there are different styles of wooden rudder, differentiated by the detailed shape of the ‘heel’, the absence/presence of trim tabs, and the size of the Flettner). The attachment of the balance weight of the wooden-framed rudder is also different, being screwed onto the frame structure. Internally, the metal and wooden rudder frames were also different in construction. Most of this is not really visible as in both cases the frame was covered by fabric, but the differences in structure could show somewhat through the fabric.

 

The wooden stabilizer was essentially smooth. As D.B. Andrus already showed, wooden stabilizers have drainage holes on the underside, but I don't know if all sub-contractors incorporated this feature – there were issues with poor water drainage in tailplanes from some sub-contractors leading to structural failure, and this is an area that’s rather difficult to get any good photographs of. A rectangular thin metal sheet covered the leading edge of the elevator - again, see D.B. Andrus' images in the post above (note that the sheet is missing in the photos, revealing the underlying wooden skin); this sheet may show up somewhat, but generally seems to have been blended quite neatly into the rest of the skinning.

 

Contrary to the rudder, wooden elevators were not fabric-covered, but had ply skinning. As a result, they are also very smooth, except for the small drainage holes near the rear edge on the underside. Wooden elevators also had two smaller, equally sized trim tabs, whereas metal-framed elevators had one large tab.

 

A wooden horizontal tailplane is normally always associated with a wooden vertical tailplane. However, it is possible to have a mixed construction tailplane, using a wooden vertical tail combined with a metal horizontal tail; WNF in particular never seems to have completely switched over to all-wooden tailplanes, and apparently continued to use metal horizontal tailplanes on part of their G-10/U4 production, even in the later blocks.

 

Vogt (2012, p. 152 - 156) has a pretty good discussion of the enlarged metal and wooden tails, complete with drawings comparing the two and several photographs of the wooden tail.

 

Reference:

 

Vogt, H. H. 2012. Messerschmitt Bf 109. Einsatzmaschinen. Das Nachschlagwerk. Zweibrücken: VDM Heinz Nickel. 384 pp. Link to publisher

Edited November 16, 2022 by pvanroy
typo and credit

[D.B. Andrus]

Thanks, pvanroy, for expanding on the wooden/metal tail surface questions.

 

Some shots of pinking tape on edge of reinforcing plates and construction of wooden tailplane(stated as K-4, but may be from an Avia S-199) :

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Damian

 

 

 

 

[LSP_Ron]

Looks like the dog had a good time with that one..

[Juggernut]

Great photos Damian!  Damned if Google doesn’t give me similar results (and it doesn’t).  Many thanks for the replies and now gives me something to think about.  I have some decisions to make regarding my Erla G-10.  If I understand correctly, were I to recreate a wooden vertical fin I would also need to create a wooden horizontal tail with an abrasion strip ( I think a masked coat of Mr. Surfacer May suffice), drain holes, without panel lines but single tab on metal elevators, correct?  
 

Hmmmmm, I wonder if the Cameo 4 will cut minuscule pinked edges?  Would it even be noticeable in scale?

Edited November 17, 2022 by Juggernut

[D.B. Andrus]

42 minutes ago, Juggernut said:

 Erla G-10.  If I understand correctly, were I to recreate a wooden vertical fin I would also need to create a wooden horizontal tail with an abrasion strip ( I think a masked coat of Mr. Surfacer May suffice) (yes,that's what I would do), drain holes, without panel lines but single tab on metal elevators, correct ?

 

Yes, that is correct if you plan to use metal elevators. However, all of the photos I have of Erla G-10's that picture the elevators show the use of the wooden version. Below are a few photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

HTH,

Damian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeMaben]

8 hours ago, LSP_Ron said:

Looks like the dog had a good time with that one..

My dog ate my messerschmitt  ! ! !

 

 

 

[Juggernut]

Thanks for that Damian and Mike....I guess I'll need to model the wooden elevators then....which is not a problem, I'll just remove the rib stitching details since it was said (above) that the elevators were skinned in plywood.  The trim tab should be an easy fix with the swipe of the x-acto (but I've been known to be very wrong before...LOL).

[Juggernut]

Ok, now let's revisit these wooden skinned elevators....  Would these have drain holes on the undersides like the wooden horizontal stab does?  I'm thinking yes but am in the dark about the number and locations of any such drain holes...or maybe  they'd be covered by dope and fabric patches?.

[D.B. Andrus]

Take a look at the kit elevators, they have pinked round patches where the drain holes are located on the underside. The odd thing is Revell has put the patches on top as well.

 

The holes would not be covered, otherwise no draining. 

 

HTH,

Damian

[quang]

Not only wooden stabs have drain holes. Drain holes were generally present on the lower part of linen-covered moving surfaces. 
As can be seen on ZM Gustav.

Edited November 20, 2022 by quang

[Juggernut]

Well, I've gotten this far with the Revell Bf109G-10, the ailerons will be next and since they're fabric, the molded pinked dope and fabric will remain.  I may drill the drain holes but I may not as the vast majority of dope and fabric control surfaces I've seen have the drain hole grommets but they're not open, they're covered with fabric which is doped in place.

 

 

LOL Damian, it's a little bit late for me to look at the kit parts as I obliterated all that detail last night.  Luckily, the instructions have a pretty good rendering of the locations so I'll use them to locate the holes in the elevators.  I also had to build up the leading edges of the outer portion of each elevator as the gap between them and the corresponding part on the stabilizer was more than I liked....probably a direct result of some overzealous seam sanding.  I also removed the molded trim tab as it was weird looking..half of it was molded with the top half of the elevator and the other half with the bottom...neither of which mated well when assembled...easy-peezey fix...knock them off with a file, cut some "appropriate" replacements and install them with some Tamiya Extra-Thin...and Bob's your Uncle.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Juggernut

[MikeMaben]

The 'patches' at the weep holes were a reinforcement for the surrounding fabric.

Simple punched holes weakened the fabric (which may have been the case in

earlier a/c).